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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:43 am 
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Maybe you are right. Nevertheless the audible part of this music easily attracts listener, and I'm not sure if some wingmakers compositions couln't be put on top 10 list ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:47 am 
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You reminded me of an experiment where they were watching plant's reaction while "hearing" music, inside a greenhouse. It seemed that they liked classic but after a lot of repetition it was torturing the plants. That's not to say classic is bad, but all things must be measured.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:28 pm 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by oba[/i]
[color=purple] seems to be some 'mote-ish' pride in appearing to be a music highbrow & conneseur. fact is all your chopins and whatnots are not half as good as wolfgang amadeus, and the WM music is an unknown factor due to apparent encoding. it might stretch the boundaries of music to include subliminal (actually, subaudient) factors. and saying only classical music is art is ridiculous;[b] I can't listen to it for very long, so it must be like reading kafka or something, great art that's unreadable ... lol [/b]

art is to the beholder, any other definition is conceit. no one ever defined what art is and no one ever will. [/color] [/quote]

So what? I don't listen to classical music but I would be completely ignorant if I said that it's unlistenable. Your argumentation is childish. I like WM chamber music, and I also say that it's simple if rendition is considered. It doesn't mean that's not interesting. It's just not art.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:49 pm 
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Wikipedia - Art..

"By its original and broadest definition, art (from the Latin ars, meaning "skill" or "craft") is the product or process of the effective application of a body of knowledge, most often using a set of skills; this meaning is preserved in such phrases as "liberal arts" and "martial arts". However, in the modern use of the word, which rose to prominence during the Renaissance, art is commonly understood to be the process or result of making material works (or artwork) which, from concept to creation, adhere to the "creative impulse"—that is, art is distinguished from other works by being in large part unprompted by necessity, by biological drive, or by any undisciplined pursuit of recreation. By both definitions of the word, artistic works have existed for almost as long as humankind, from early pre-historic art to contemporary art."

Hmm..

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:44 am 
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Answer a simple question: Is pop music art?


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Is Escher's work art? For some people it certainly is. The "WingMakers' Materials" are like Escher's work to the power of 10, and when you will experience it for real, in this life or another, you will be 'knocked off your feet'. You are just not ready for it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:57 am 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Alex[/i]
Synth:Aeon... It's a bit weird debating the artistic value of the WM Music.[/quote]

Well, this part of the forum is about discussing the music of the Lyricus Teaching Order.... and, er.... music is an art form.

[quote]
To begin with, all art has some value. But that value is extremely relative. Some people for example can't differentiate between heavy metal, black metal or thrash metal. It's all metal to them and they don't even "want to hear this noisy crap". Yet it all begins with a mental state and certain preconceptions. I'm not free of preconceptions either. For example when I was a kid and saw some fellow students hearing metal crap, I was like "ok they want to play big and that's why they hear these".. Then somebody lend me some music cd of this type and I saw art in it.

I started with rock / metal, then a bit gothic (all this in parallel with local music), then I started listening a bit of many types (pop, rock, dance, rock, metal, local, gothic) but I still was judgemental about the subjective artistic value of kinds like hip-hop, the "peeu-peeu" trance music or "new age".

Your stance about new age music and the people hearing it, remind me of my school days and my judgemental attitude towards my friends. I was certain that they had certain reasons for hearing what they did, and they couldn't probably have found art in what they hear.

I could spare you the rhetoric since you've said that:

[quote]
"As I've said before on these forums, Beauty, as a measure of art, whether or not it is "in the eye of the beholder", is not an issue" if you hadn't said that:
[/quote]

but you also said:

[quote]
"New Age" music is not taken seriously as Art by anyone except followers of the New Age Movement.
[/quote]


So it's like implying: New age people are this and that (as far as popular opinion is concerned) and no-body gives a dang about them anyway since the system is positioned to view them "lightly". So their appreciation of the affiliated music, doesn't mean much generally. But this kind of implied thinking negates the fact that in art there is no such thing as "generally".[/quote]

The New Age Movement or the "enlightenment community" (as the Wingmakers webmaster, Mark Hempel calls it) has a prevelant and lasting influence throughout the corridors of power internationally, way beyond the cliched notion of New Agers as a bunch of alternative hippy-drippy pacifist drop-outs or corporate workers seeking a more spiritual or healthier lifestyle.

The New Age Movement is hampered by religious dogma, but that is also its appeal. It disallows free reign to the free imagination as it endlessly finds meaning and symbols where they are inconsequential or non-existent. It tends to look for social, political and financial gain, concerns that are irrelevant to art. The imaginative scope of the New Age Movement (including Wingmakers) is severely limited by entirely fanciful concepts that are believed to be rational truths.

Any artist, musician, painter, poet or whatever, has to be able to create freely without the intervention of preconceived rational, mystical or philosophical concerns. That is one reason so many artists appear to live unconventionally or are hedonists, because they often tend not to impose moral, religious or philosophical guidelines or heed social mores when it comes to their creative and imaginative processes. Whereas New Ageism and the likes of Wingmakers is all about thinking and behaving according to a set of what are essentially religious codes of conduct.

Heavy Metal music does not require adherence to philosophical or religious beliefs for it to be appreciated as musical art. Heavy Metal music has a subculture attached to it, but it is generated by the music and the way the music is performed. To experience that kind of music does not necessitate buying into the subculture. The same cannot be said of WM music.

[quote][i]Originally posted by Alex[/i]As for me.. well.. My normal sound preferences are not new-age-y, at all... and I mean nowhere close. It's not like I had to push to push myself to listen to the WM CDs but in some parts (and they were quite a few), my ego judged them as weird, rediculous, not-very-good and so on. Through this experience I understood more about how my mind operates, in the sense that it tends to judge based on comparison and expectation. When the music is played enough times, the mind stops occupying itself with weird thoughts like "why is this native shouting like this?" and when it does, something weird happens. The non-logical part of the mind taps into something like an energetic feeling-energy that accompanies a tune/vocal/sound that cannot be appropriately expressed in words and which conveys various messages.[/quote]

As far as that kind of music goes, WM music is quite vacuous and dull. It makes no sense at all except as a kind of New Age shopping mall muzak -- unless you read all the WM website and somehow think the information it imparts is "true". Then the WM music seemingly becomes imbued with supernatural properties, which is an illusion created by a desire to believe that Wingmakers is an outpouring of the "divine".

Alternatively, listen to field recordings of tribal music and to popular club music like trance and you'll have the real thing rather than the contrived hodge-podge of those kind of sounds that makes up WM music.

[quote]Ha!... While I was writting this I had in mind a certain vocal which conveys a message which is less a message and more like an urge.. an "urge for liberation/expansion/freedom" which is of a similar energy signature to the upper right man figure of chamber 4 painting - as I perceive it. And I was thinking of how inter-related all these are.. And as I was making connections, at the same time I happened to be hearing Coldplay-Speed of sound. A part of my mind told me "plz watch the lyrics now" and the song was saying:

All that noise, and all that sound,
All those places I got found.
And birds go flying at the speed of sound,
to show you how it all began.
Birds came flying from the underground,
if you could see it then you'd understand,
ah when you see it then you'll understand

..very pertinent.. [/quote]

Personally, I don't like the music or lyrics of Coldplay, but it's still art, and I'm not talking about personal preferences in artistic matters.

[quote]..anyway to come back to the topic at hand.. so I was saying about the value of music not only in the classical sense of getting pleasure out of hearing a pleasant tune, but that this kind of music is conveying things. At some point of a CD it sais "this is a story".. and you know what? Most, if not all WM music "is a story".. the thing is that if you analyse it in your mind you can't see past the sounds that comprise it.[/quote]

The same can be said of any auditory phenomena, whether or not they're meant to be musical or artistic. Sounds tell stories all the time, from the sound of the phone to a near inaudible voice to the screeching of a car and so on. You can make up stories out of any arrangement of sounds you like. You don't even have to know what the sounds are. All music and sound conveys things to the imagination. In this context, recording studio trickery is used to convey itself as a means of promoting a website, which in terms of art or music, is ridiculous.

In the case of Wingmakers/Lyricus audio recordings, before there can be any story, before there is any appreciation or understanding, there really has to be a positive analysis of the written content of the wingmakers website. Otherwise it amounts to nothing of any interest or value.

Of course, art and music is understood emotionally, mentally, imaginatively and in many other ways. We can take that for granted. A purely mental means of understanding or analysing music would be woefully inadequate, as would having to identify its supposed effect through having to read some philosophical theories about it. Music usually works best simply listened to as music.

To make an assessment of the artistic value of the music of Coldplay you are not required to do anything other than listen to the music and/or witness their live or recorded performances. With Wingmakers/Lyricus music, you either allow yourself to accept the Wingmakers world-view and/or already be receptive to New Age belief systems, whereby you will come into contact with similar types of "music for relaxation/meditation" and suchlike -- that is, audio recordings that serve an assumed function -- not music as art but as auditory enhancements for a chosen consumer lifestyle option or spiritual belief system.

You don't have to read Coldplay's website to appreciate their music, but you can find out who they are and what they have to say about their music, something which cannot be done in relation to WM audio works. The WM musicians are all more or less faceless or pseudonymous or they refuse to talk, except perhaps for the singer Charlotte-Marie, who sings on Wingmakers/Hakomi CD recordings and whose credentials are extremely dubious, affiliated as she is with the 3HO organisation which has been in and out of court for all sorts of shady criminal dealings.

[quote][i]Originally posted by Alex[/i]It would be like trying to read a text by examining the letters. It doesn't work that way. And I'm not saying this to tell you that your approach is wrong and mine is right. I found out through trial, error and experience and this is not transferrable. [/quote]

Reading a text involves examining the letters. That is how a reading is carried out. If you can't decipher the letters, you can't understand or interpret what they mean. There is no such word as "wingmaker". You won't find it in the dictionary. It is still possible to ascribe a meaning. Er.... "one who makes wings", perhaps someone who serves up carcasses in a KFC, or maybe someone who is an inventor of angels.

[quote]As for the non-artistic value, there are certain experiences that people have with the music. I've had some which are quite interesting, and I know others have as well. However since these experiences are subjective I can't tell you that if you hear this then you'll experience that - it has no guarantees.[/quote]

Such subjective experiences are not invalid, but they may be a form of social conditioning as opposed to inspiration originating with a form of art.

If there is scientific evidence to the effect that WM Music indeed operates on a level beyond art and is capable of inducing some kind of spiritual revelation or experiences, then it would be interesting to read, but unfortunately there is none, and there never will be any. The reason being, WM music is not just non-art, it is also unscientific, and as such has no basis in any genuine scientific principles. You could say that it does, but science as applied to sound or anything else has to be proven before it means anything real, though the theory can be interesting.

[quote]Given the holistic nature of the material which is multifaceted, you can't even isolate the music as a single component. I consider it insane to go to that length and then deal with the music only on it's most superficial level (how it sounds) and essentially split it from all the other, more essential parts (what it conveys, what it triggers, what it does). [/quote]

I'm already describing what it does, triggers or conveys. Wingmakers/Lyricus music at best conveys itself as muzak, triggering synthetic and saccharin samples, beats and melodies with a cosmic sheen. You can't consider what amounts to audio wallpaper as having anything to do with either the experience of art or of spirituality.

You can only ascertain a given series of musical compositions in terms of art in so far as those musical compositions translate in the wider cultural setting as art. You can only ever deal with music according to how it sounds. All it does is make sounds. All art, including music is about appearances. Of course the sound of WM music has other effects and meanings beyond just what is heard, but without its sound there in the first place that would be impossible. Apart from that, whatever WM music is supposed to "do" can only be according to a sympathetic reading or reiteration of the written content of the WM website, that is, according to a set of fanciful religious beliefs.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:22 am 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by oba[/i]
[color=purple]
art is to the beholder, any other definition is conceit. no one ever defined what art is and no one ever will. [/color] [/quote]

Art is not a subjective concept or feeling. It is a range of specialised activities, all of which have very clear defining characteristics.

Conceit is integral to art as a figurative intellectual device. It was often used by the Metaphysical Poets.

Countless individuals throughout the ages have defined art and go on defining it, not least artists. If it couldn't be defined, then it simply wouldn't exist.

Here's one definition:

"All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril." -- Oscar Wilde, 1891


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:46 am 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by CV[/i]
Is Escher's work art? For some people it certainly is. The "WingMakers' Materials" are like Escher's work to the power of 10, and when you will experience it for real, in this life or another, you will be 'knocked off your feet'. You are just not ready for it. [/quote]
How do you know that I haven't experienced it for 'real'? I'm moved by this music and also say that's not art (Beacuse rendition compared to classical music is too simple). Do you understand now? Art is a value that is not determined by your taste, it's fully objective. Compositions written by Chopin are art, and pop music is source of entertainment.
;)

[Edited on 20-4-2006 by Peter]


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:18 pm 
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maybe some are just not hypnotized by all the flashy lights and subliminal suggestions.LOL
hearing clearly? ;)
[url=http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/Mind/Trance.html]mezmerized effects?[/url]


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:55 pm 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Ebyam[/i]
maybe some are just not hypnotized by all the flashy lights and subliminal suggestions.LOL [/quote]

Yes, maybe some are "Like a patient etherised upon a table"....

;)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:13 pm 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by oba[/i]
[color=purple]

to synth aeon-

really, if your mind is closed to something, there's nothing I need to say to defend that thing. I simply note that your mind (sensibilities, aesthetic appreciation, etc) are [b] closed to it [/b]and that's that. and I'm sure you're more open to other things, and I'm sure you will enjoy these a lot by comparison.
[/quote]

There is more to the appreciation of music than whether or not one finds it enjoyable. My mind is wide open to the music in question. That is why I am willing and able to describe and discuss it. But that is also why I am not taken in by the false claims that are made for it.... and why I am not receptive to "encodings" that are nothing more edifying than subliminal advertising.

[quote]I regret that the Grand Portal does not kindle interest. I note that you say you have considered the music in relation to the other body of WM work yet remain unimpressed by it.
and the body of WM work concerns the future of humankind. the WM-Lyricus view of the future describes exciting developments that would bring the species to its fuller attainments. that this does not impress only reminds that it has its opponents. [/quote]

Undoubtedly, Wingmakers as a whole is an "impressive" piece of work. As far as contemporary expressions of esotericism goes, Wingmakers is positively cutting edge, certainly an advancement on from many other similar such nonsenses as "Ascended Masters" or "Light-Body DNA Activation".

New Ageism abandons social justice, equality, progressive politics, revolutionary art, the end of oppression, etc in favour of capitulation in the form of rackets like Wingmakers. The core illusion of WM centers around a pretentious demand for reverence instead of an open-ended exploration of the imagination. It is somewhat alarming to see people so "impressed" they let themselves be conned by blatant irrationalism, intellectual fraud, religious mysticism, conspiracy theories and hackneyed sci-fi conceits in the vain hope that it will further their spiritual prowess.

[quote] use of various world percussions (tabla, bongos etc) and done with such nice tempo, is somewhat gratifying. WM music is un-scientific? and what is scientific music like?
wait. forget that. [/quote]

The claim is made on the wingmakers website that the music is "designed to stimulate the Intra-Laminar Nuclei region to act as a synchronizing mechanism for human consciousness and the Genetic Mind".

If there was scientific evidence for that, then we might be able to say that the WM/Lyricus music has an "important" scientific aspect to it. But there isn't any.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:04 am 
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[quote] Originally posted by oba
[color=330099]
I will have time for a better answer later but for now, I note that a cliche like 'new age' is one of those blanket negatives that has very little actual meaning. it's like archie bunker going ..... ' oyyy meathead .. all you left wingers are da same .. oyyy ..' what's a left winger? apparently anything that threatens the conservative views of mr. bunker.[/quote]

Usually, a left-winger is someone who subscribes to Socialist ideas emerging from a Marxist perspective. There's nothing vague about that, but it depends on which "left-wingers" you are talking about and how they express their views.

[quote] same with a cliche like new age. as far as I can tell, it's a basket of any belief system outside what is approved by established conventional theology. in other words it could be anything from jungle voodoo to scientology in an LA studio. are these similar? of course not.[/quote]

They are not New Age either.

Voodoo is a very well-established religion with roots going back thousands of years. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the New Age.

Sometimes regarded as a "new religious movement" or part of the personal development movement, Scientology is widely recognised as a mind-bending, militaristic, pseudoscientific cult. Most self-respecting New Agers would be very unlikely to take Scientology seriously and would view it with suspicion.

[quote] that's what blanket negatives do. they are false cliches which make for shallow dialog. I will get to other stuff later. but I note that the use of blanket negatives cheapens the argument totally.[/quote]

The term "New Age" is a generally descriptive term, and its meaning as outlined for instance at the document at this address:

[url=http://www.religioustolerance.org/newage.htm]http://www.religioustolerance.org/newage.htm[/url]

gives a fairly impartial definition, one which encompasses a belief in Wingmakers.

At Wikipedia, Wingmakers and Lyricus come under the headings of "New Age" and "Religious faiths, traditions, and movements".

"New Age" is a keyword used throughout the source code of the wingmakers website.

It would be fair to say that Wingmakers is New Age.

However, I don't need to discuss Wingmakers solely as regards its status as a New Age phenomenon, and would be quite willing to discuss it in precise detail. It's only that in relation to this thread, to do with the Lyricus/Wingmakers music, "New Age music" is the accurate term to describe it, and it is one which has implications beyond simply musical considerations.

[quote]
[quote] the core illusion of WM centers around a pretentious demand for reverence instead of an open-ended exploration [/quote] congratulations, you have said the opposite of the situation. the (firmly stated & oft repeated) WM/ Lyricus position is to encourage at all times the discriminating faculty and to recommend the avoidance at all of times of such ahem .. sheepish- zombie.. behavior. you have stated the situation [b]exactly the opposite [/b] of what the intentions are. any more brilliant nuggets? why don't you just forget this nonsense and send me money. my paypal is [b] robert@dlshq.org [/b] thanks. & hurry. 50 grand for now, the rest later. [/quote]

To find the "pretentious demand for reverence" inherent in the WingMakers materials, we need go no further than the first page of the wingmakers.com website wherefrom it is claimed we will find

"transmissions of profound insight" .... and that "It is certain to expand the mind and heart of any who reads, listens, and views this inspiring collection. The WingMakers Materials are.... as much a spiritual revelation as a mind-expanding adventure into the profound discoveries that await humanity."

The presentation of Wingmakers is full of corporate adspeak, hype and capitalistic marketing jargon, which are always by definition pretentious. It is couched in a sentimental terminology designed to appeal to the "enlightenment community", which is its "market". There are literally hundreds more such examples. The actual content is full of various kinds of irrational demands for reverence, for all sorts of "higher beings", "myths", "multi-dimensional consciousness", "teachers", and so on and so forth.... just as with most religions. The fact that Wingmakers does not really proselytise or preach and calls for readers to remain discriminating does not mean to say it is unpretentious and does not call for reverence.

[Edited on 21-4-2006 by Synth:Aeon]


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when I say NEW AGE... I am speaking from experience...of a mind set that does not accept half of the life experience...intolerant of the dark side of the coin...and therefore is so unbalanced they have made a U-turn in unlimited or free thinking by not accepting ALL that is...pretending ignorance is bliss.

Believe what you will about WMMs, I see them as they have presented themselves...not as a religion but a science...Cosmology, or the study of everything...nothing rejected...all is revealed.

There is no clergy, hierarchy, dogma, ritual, tithing, or secrets (mysteries)...no guilt or forgiveness...all are welcome and no "leap of faith" is required as we together, build bridges between worlds.

One comes to understand that there is NO diety...considering FS is the energy signal of a collective consciousness demonstrating sovereign-equality...and that recognizes, wholeness as the ultimate goal of the species, nurtured by free will.

the fact that the materials suggest that we encourage discussions in a "kindleing" enviroment which allows growth via a polite exchange of energy, in no way limits what we are discussing...just how we project our personal awareness...into the mirror.

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[color=330099]

I've decided to remove my posts from this thread.

[/color]

[Edited on 22-4-2006 by oba]


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:43 pm 
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This discussion is more than it's topic. As I see it, each one of us is in a different stage of evolution.

The first stage of soul experience, is when the soul "just came in" and therefore more aligned to it's true nature. It's good intentioned, believes others and so on. Problem being that in a "problematic" 3D world, this translates to naivety.

The naive person will then become disillusioned from the scums all around them and will go to the polar opposite position, of the extreme skeptic. That's because they do not want to experience the same pain of being misled/manipulated/cheated and so on. However the tendency to believe everything, has now got to the tendency of disbelieving everything.

If we view the situation from a 2D perspective (a circle), the "naive stage" is 12 o'clock. The skeptic stage is 6 o'clock (opposite).

Everything will go back, to the completion of the circle (12 o'clock) when the person, now equipped with the necessary skeptical abilities, moves from absolute denial to selective acceptance based on the alignment of their true spiritual nature coupled with sound judgement+discernment that is gathered experientially while in the physical universe.

From a 3D perspective, the person has not only moved a full circle. It was all a spiral. The first 12 o clock is the lower spire. 6 o'clock (denial) is half spire up. 12 o'clock (selective acceptance) is an entire spire up.

For this reason I'd take a Synth:Aeon over a naive "believer" (which may actually believe something true through "hit & miss" tactics), any day. Cause stage 2, is much closer to stage 3, than stage 1. However stage twos, having not seen what's further down the road, think that what exists is either stage 1 (naivety) or stage 2 (skepticism). They have no idea of stage 3, and naturally they confuse "ones" and "threes" as being the same for they know not they are different. They do understand one, because they once been them. They cannot understand threes because that's ahead of them.

Sublimely, twos, can see some subtle differences in groups.. They can see the difference of groups were stage 1+3 co-exist together in believing something. Ones are immediately apparent for their naive open-mindedness. Threes are "perplexing" in that they are intelligent and posess critical ability - something that would adequately equip them from falling into a trap. At that point an algorithm functions into a "twos" mind in order to determine how ones and threes co-exist. (Again, all these work sublimely). In absence of a mental model that could be the reason to differentiate them and aided by the two's own unwillingness to open themselves up to the possibility of something being true, they generalise them as one and barely give a second thought from that point onwards. However, that point where all these processes happened, exist.

Two's have a serious complex regarding choice decision. Since twos are twos because they have passed through one rather recently, they are vigil so as to not be led astray. They also avoid making decisions and if they do, they go with the view of things which appear the "safer bet". Since the process of decision is quite important for them, [i]it is also something they watch in others[/i]. When they do so, they are ready to act out their complex of what they'd do if they were in the other person's shoes and that is most commonly expressed as judgement, either with a good intention (I don't want you to be misled) or a bad intention (haha, how fools are you really? I'm glad it's not me there).

Generally speaking, twos are usually smart people that don't want to be deceived. Therefore their main intention is a noble one when viewed from that perspective. The "problem" is that they are exceedingly coward (a remnant of the emotional pain they accrued during the end of stage 1), regarding decision making. They also tend to stagnate into mere denial for long periods. Some times catalytic things happen in their lifes to wake them up so as to re-evaluate things. When they do, they are essentially forced to chose some of the bolder options - otherwise they would have to self-delude themselves into forgetfullness. Some do the latter and stagnate a bit more. It's ok. It's not a race. All in their own time. However three is just around the corner, if one stands up and actually go there. The tools are in place (one's divine nature + the accrued skills of judgement+discernment from the worlds of time and space) and one only needs to synthesize them in order to complete the circle (2D perspective) and elevate one spiral of evolution (3D perspective).

Why am I saying all these in a music thread? Because what we're talking about is not really a disagreement on music. It's a discussion between ones, twos and threes that have fundamental disagreements that they don't even understand where they originate from. Shedding light to this aspect, makes things waaaaay more transparent. However, the level of absorption of what I wrote, is dependant on how far one is in completing their own spiral.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:08 pm 
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Hi all,
This is my first post, but allow me to jump into the fray. In my humble opinion I perceive this thread has gone from a discussion on Lyricus music to that of philosophy. Maybe one of you senior folks can move us over to a philosophy section and re-start us there. I remember seeing a section titled "Beliefs and Neo-science" - that seems like a good place.
The reason I say this is even the point of whether or not something is art is subjective at the root. Synth:Aeon is actually just sharing his opinion on his subjective view of what constitutes art as well as the worth of the "New Age movement". Although he presents his views logically and linearally (i.e. left-brained) it is all still subjective. So, all of this current discussion is more along the lines of a philosophical debate.
I have been involved in "the consciousness movement" since 1984. Most of what I have experienced would be categorized as unsupported subjective experience, BUT, as science evolves, much of what has been deemed "subjective" is becoming documented fact. (Did anyone see the April 2005 issue of Nat'l Geographic on the Mind?) Growing up in Hawai'i, I got acupuncture and traditional Chinese herbs for my asthma long before Western medicine "believed" in the existence of meridians. Now you can get a Doctor of Medicine degree specializing in Eastern methodologies. I am currently studying a qigong-based method of correcting emotional issues through the clearing of energetic blockages in the meridians. This is still considered bogus by most psychologists, but the method has undergone 10 years of controlled clinical tests with a success rate of over 80%.
The whole beauty of the impending Grand Portal discovery is that it takes what has long been a subjective experience and factualizes it so that even atheists can engage in the experience of the Divine if they wish to. :D

[Edited on 26-4-2006 by Kailasa108]


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:12 pm 
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Kailasa108 thank you for this information because it only reiterates what is happening. The old ways are becoming that much more fragmented because it is obvious they don't work and (especially) new old ways have been demonstrated to be that much more effective. Now why is that? Perhaps, because they are aligned with the human body as a whole which is aligned with the earth and nature and her consciousness as a whole which is aligned with the universe and her consciousness as a whole. Instead of being unrelated bits and pieces we are seeing the coherence of what we are in the whole of the creation of it. Thank you for your very insightful input.:)

[Edited on 27-4-2006 by Shayalana]


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:54 am 
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This music of the Wingmakers and Lyricus is best described as "Designer Music", in other words there is a definite and conscious purpose to it. It's intent is strong and very, very, conscious. It's awake up call to those who arranged for it, before.;)


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:18 pm 
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designer music... lol... I like that perspective...because from the interviews, we learn that each "note" was "designed" to promote an experience...qne that it was produced by our species, designers. ;)

[quote]
Sarah: "So were you involved in the music translations as well?"

Dr. Neruda: "Yes. I helped in the initial discovery of their musical notation and helped with the translation indexes. I wasn't involved in its production phase, though I was very curious as to what it would sound like."

Sarah: "Can I hear any of these compositions?" Dr. Neruda: "Yes, of course. When I left, the ACIO had successfully translated ten of the twenty-three music compositions. I have these. And they've been converted to both CD and cassette standards. I also have complete files of the remaining thirteen compositions in their raw, de-constructed form."

Sarah: "How were they produced exactly?"

Dr. Neruda: "Do you mean that technically or artistically?"

Sarah: "I guess both."

Dr. Neruda: "On the technical end we needed to step their samples down to a resolution of 384-bit in order to use them in our computer systems. When we first heard the samples of instrumentation, we were somewhat relieved to hear familiar sounds. There were some that were different, but for the most part, the digital samples that were encoded on the optical disc were the same as contemporary musical instruments heard around the world.

"Once we had captured their samples and organized them into octaves, we took their compositional notations and essentially let the computer select the digital instrumentation based on their samples. Eventually this all had to be stepped down to a 24-bit commercial CD mastering system, which was them pressed on a CD and recorded onto a cassette tape.

"As for the artistic production, there really wasn't much that we did. The computers did all the interpretative work and essentially performed the production for that matter. We had some of our staff perform overdubs on various versions to experiment with the compositions. The music was very popular, particularly when you listened to it at a sampling resolution of 384-bit."

Sarah: "Didn't anyone wonder why the time capsule included a musical construction kit instead of just having a recording of the music? I mean, why have us bring an artistic interpretation to their music?"

Dr. Neruda: "Everything was wondered about in the Ancient Arrow project. Everything.

"We didn't know why they did it the way they did it, but again our hypothesis was that the WingMakers didn't have a way to bring their music into our world because we lacked the technology to listen to it. So they disassembled their music into -- as you put it -- a construction kit, which enabled us to reconstruct the music so it could be listened to on our technology. It's the most logical reason.

"There were several of us who were able to experience chambers one and two as a completely integrated form of expression and it was a very powerful experience--to say the least. When you hear the music in 384-bit resolution with the original paintings, standing inside the actual chamber in which they were placed, it is a very moving and spiritual experience. Unlike any I've ever had."[/quote]

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"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:39 pm 
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Hey there Starduster to conscious awareness! To being awake to our missions! Clink!

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