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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:00 pm 
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Please don't think I am vilifying your mother in any way. She was a grand lady. You have my condolences and you KNOW that.

YOU and she are the ones who told me she suffered from heart failure as early as the 70s. Your own words about her depression after her fall were what I was refering to. I'm very sorry she is gone and you know that I and my family sent flowers to her funeral addressed to your father, you and the "girls". If I mistook what YOU said about her then I apologize. I still don't think your referal to the reason she died is correct. It is another example of your distortion of fact.

Gotta go eat! Vege Pizza.

This is devolving into a personal conversation. Not appropriate I think.

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This is not a time of individual ascension and then dutiful service to teach. . . .
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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:24 pm 
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well...I don't care if you believe it or not..

as for the not killing...that is total hypocrisy...and the point I have been trying to make...plants are living complex organisms with some level of consciousness, until you pull them out of the ground...they even have life after they are uprooted and while they are in the frig...just because they don't have eyes and a mouth to scream out...doesn't mean that you are not killing them and often eating them while they are still alive!

wake up. I've listen to the self-righteous BS from vegger all my life...and you have had more medical problems that most people I know...so stuff it.

who cares what James eats or doesn't eat...we are all unique...and the first post I made in this topic, quotes how James feels about teacher who advocate certain breathing techniques or foods that will make a person more spiritual...and tells us that we should find what best suits us.

Quote:
The rise and acceleration of complexity in life has also given rise to complexity in one's spiritual life. There are many so-called spiritual practices that require you to breath in very specific manners and rhythms. Others require you to eat certain combinations of food and drink. Others prescribe very detailed meditations and postures. Still others define certain colors and sound frequencies that are activating to you soul.

Living from the heart is not centered on a precision of technique or complex practices of the body, mind or emotional control. It is the simple moment-to -moment practice of the heart virtues in your daily affairs. Over time, this practice culminates in a virtuosity of precision and control, but this is the natural outcome of simple practices , not the rigid programs of training at the outset, and this is an important distinction.

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"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview


Last edited by starduster on Sun May 31, 2009 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:40 pm 
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starduster wrote:
well...I don't care if you believe it or not...but it haunts my dad, and he feels very guilty for letting her starve...I talked to the dr himself the day she died, and he explained it in detail...he said she didn't have the nutrients in her diet to keep her digestive system going, even though we gave her Ensure twice a day...and she ate twice a day and munched on junk food...dad thinks he killed mom because he couldn't make her eat meat...because of what the doctor said.

as for the not killing...that is total hypocrisy...and the point I have been trying to make...plants are living complex organisms with some level of consciousness, until you pull them out of the ground...they even have life after they are uprooted and while they are in the frig...just because they don't have eyes and a mouth to scream out...doesn't mean that you are not killing them and often eating them while they are still alive!

wake up.


Well let's not express what we believe about food any more ok? We've both made our case I think.

My heart goes out to your father. As the years pass and I am with someone for so long It's hard to imagine the day when one of us will no longer be able to hold the other (here).

If it is any comfort to your father (and to you) , your mother's condition is not uncommon in older people. The very same thing is happening to my husbands grandmother who is about the age of your mother.

She just went into a nursing home the day after we visited during the Thanksgiving holiday. She is wasteing away, no matter what she eats she is not nourished. She actually refuses to eat anything most of the time. She never has quit eating meat. This is not uncommon in those who are choosing transition. If you are honest you know there are a few things about the aging process that you mother did not like.

This phenomenon that happened to your mother is very prevalant among elderly people. it is especially prevailant woth those who have had a fall for some unknown reason. That is true whether they eat meat or not. It is my belief that when the soul is ready to return to the Portal it will do what is necessary to disconnect from the Soul Carrier. NO thing that a person can do will stop this process.

Be at peace. All is well surely I know it is

Love All Ways
Be In Joy

_________________
Activist in Global Awareness Shift

Every day to those who give me the opportunity to exercise Spiritual Maturity, I am grateful and give thanks

This is not a time of individual ascension and then dutiful service to teach. . . .
~J~


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:16 pm 
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removed personal stuff

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"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview


Last edited by starduster on Sun May 31, 2009 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:27 pm 
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starduster wrote:
well, it is very true that my mom was determined to die before dad, because she didn't want to have to be unhappy...mom was a queen for most of her life...and with the exception of about twenty years...she had everything she every wanted...and didn't want to hear about anyones problems, she lived in a fantasy world reading novels one right after another. Dad has out lived everyone in his family except for his dad who lived to be 98 but the oldest any of his siblings lived was 90...so I figure she would rather be safe than sorry...so she starved herself on purpose the year he turned 90...plus it got her a lot of attention. She had no reason to believe that she was going anywhere but Heaven, because she never cussed and her tithing was paid in full (snicker)...and she was a saint to put up with Barney for 64 years.

yes, she hated being old...her fingers were too skinny to hold all the heavy jewerly...but she was wearing a mini skirt when she went into the ER lol


It's GREAT to be Queen! *smile*! I think you are for once (lol) absolutely, unequivocally TOTALLY right! And that's a cute picture of her final Act. I can just see it.
:P

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Every day to those who give me the opportunity to exercise Spiritual Maturity, I am grateful and give thanks

This is not a time of individual ascension and then dutiful service to teach. . . .
~J~


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:48 pm 
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*WOW*...two...speaks from *HEART'S FELT*>>>sharing...heh...true "perSONalls"...*Thank You Being*...both~~~union's~~~*RING.IN.G* :)

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:51 pm 
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:)
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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:19 am 
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 389630.ece

From Times OnlineFebruary 18, 2008

Slaughterhouse

This undercover video of sick and crippled cows being brought to slaughter in an abattoir in southern California has prompted the largest recall of beef in US history, (writes Will Pavia).

The US Department of Agriculture yesterday ordered that 143 million lb of beef from the slaughterhouse be recalled. Officials estimate that some 37 million lbs of the recalled meat had been heading to schools across America though they fear that most of it will have already been eaten.

The abattoir run by the Hallmark Meat Packing Company, an associate and supplier of Westland Meat Company, which provides meat for America’s National School Lunch Programme, is now the subject of an an animal-abuse investigation.

Ed Schafer, the US Secretary of Agriculture Ed Schafer said his department had evidence that Westland did not routinely contact its veterinarian when cattle lost the power to walk after passing inspection, violating health regulations.

“Because the cattle did not receive complete and proper inspection, Food Safety and Inspection Service has determined them to be unfit for human food and the company is conducting a recall,” Mr Schafer said in a statement.

Dr **** Raymond, the department’s undersecretary for food safety, said: “We don’t know how much product is out there right now. We don’t think there is a health hazard, but we do have to take this action.”

The evidence referred to by the authorities was contained in an undercover video shot at the abattoir, showing workers kicking, electric shocking and otherwise maltreating “downer” animals: cows that appear to be too sick or injured to walk. The video was produced by a representative from the Humane Society of the United States, who had been working undercover at the plant.

The representative claimed that workers at the plant attempted to get sick animals to pass a cursory vetinary inspection and into the slaughter pens. The video shows cows being dragged by the hoof behind a forklift truck, and distressed animals being lifted, rolled and shocked in an attempt to force them to stand. One clip shows a worker apparently attempting to force a cow to stand by forcing water down its throat.

As well as concerns over cruelty, federal regulations call for keeping downed cattle out of the food supply because they may pose a higher risk of contamination from E. coli, salmonella or mad cow disease, because the cows typically wallow in faeces and their immune systems are often weak.

Most of the recalled products were sent to distribution centres in bulk packages. The US Department of Agriculture said it will work with distributors to determine how much meat remains.

About 150 school districts around the nation have stopped using ground beef from the slaughterhouse. Two fast-food chains, Jack-In-the-Box and In-N-Out, said they would not use beef from Westland and Hallmark.

On February 3, Steve Mendell, President of Westland and Hallmark, issued a statement: “Words cannot accurately express how shocked and horrified I was at the depictions contained on the video that was taken by an individual who worked at our facility from October 3 thru November 14, 2007. We have taken swift action regarding the two employees identified on the video and have already implemented aggressive measures to ensure all employees follow our humane handling policies and procedures,” he said.

“We are also cooperating with the USDA investigators on the allegations of inhumane handling treatment which is a serious breech of our company’s policies and training.”

The Department of Agriculture’s inspections regime has also come in for criticism following the recall. “Today marks the largest beef recall in U.S. history, and it involves the national school lunch program and other federal food and nutrition programs,” said U.S. Senator Tom Harkin, chairman of the Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry. “This begs the question: How much longer will we continue to test our luck with weak enforcement of federal food safety regulations?”

Advocacy groups also weighed in, noting the problems at Westland wouldn’t have been revealed had it not been for animal right activists. “On the one hand, I’m glad that the recall is taking place. On the other, it’s somewhat disturbing, given that obviously much of this food has already been eaten,” said Jean Halloran, director of food policy initiatives at Consumers Union. “It’s really closing the barn door after the cows left.”

It's official. I've tried to keep these images and the cries of the tortured animals at bay for years while I drank Milk and ate cheese, while not eating meat. I watch the TODAY show each morning and this morning they had this video almost in the entirety. The unspeakable horror that these gentle animals endure as they are slaughtered is truly that. But the ting that made me start to cry and I can't stop is the image if one poor cow being dragged, staggering to her feet up a ramp to her death, dragging her half full milk bags (udders). I just called Lamont (my husbands posting name) at work and he and I agreed this is IT. Vegan for us. We've been moving toward it slowly for years. PLEASE look at it. Really look at it. (This video) Raising of Human awareness will NEVER be completed while this kind of animal abuse is tolerated.

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Every day to those who give me the opportunity to exercise Spiritual Maturity, I am grateful and give thanks

This is not a time of individual ascension and then dutiful service to teach. . . .
~J~


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:52 pm 
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can you not see the cry of this video? most children go to schools and no one even puts any emphases ON WHAT IS BEING FED TO THE CHILDREN. this isn't just a cry for abused meat to stop being served because it is the entire meal that is wrong, overly processed with hardly any nutritional value.

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:15 pm 
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Oona wrote:
Hi COulter. Thanks for your answer. I too apologize. I don't think my original post required all that fuss. I keep hearing about the deficits that people experience when they are not eating meat. I would just say keep trying. My son is a 4th generation vegetarian and is the tallest strongest most athletic one at every group. He has endless energy and so do I.

Even if we didn't care about health benefits, we would want to go the next step to veganism because of the rise in cruelty to farmed animals. Thanks for starting a thread about this. One of the Meet-up groups I belong to (activists) is the Vegetarian/Vegan group for our area. We get together once a month to support a vegetarian or vegan restaurantand we are constantly having speakers and getting information. i am encouraged to see that now some vegetarian "meat" products are getting into the main stream grocery stores. :D


As an ova-lacto vegetarian, I used to think I could "fly under the radar" by consuming milk products because when I was growing up, dairy cows seemed to have a nice life, munching grass in the sun on a grassy slope then being brought in to be relieved of their burgeoning milk sacks.....this is no longer the case. You no longer see cows in the fields where I grew up. The dairy farmers have started bringing them inside for their entire lifetime. The cows spend the whole day standing in side of a small barn; No more sun; No more grass, No more life. Then when they fall ill, they are pushed into a dumpster with a fork lift and fed to school children – truth.

Seeing this has changed how I think about my contribution to this "machine".....

Thanks for the thread guys and gals.


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:35 pm 
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In reading the remainder of this thread I see that if only the 2 octogenarians were taken as evidence

1.) lived to the late 90's, drank, smoked, ate meat, etc.
2.) lived to the late 90's, vegetarian, did not drink, etc.

as to the possibility that one life style does not guarantee longevity over another, then I would definitely choose not to contribute to the suffering of animals. Since we both (the animals and me) have to eat something, plants are my choice.

Pretty simple since I am 47 and a bonifide bad-ass.
:mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:48 pm 
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coulterIV wrote:
can you not see the cry of this video? most children go to schools and no one even puts any emphases ON WHAT IS BEING FED TO THE CHILDREN. this isn't just a cry for abused meat to stop being served because it is the entire meal that is wrong, overly processed with hardly any nutritional value.



I do see the plight of the children. But the children are being fed what their parents want them and teach them to eat. It's apparent that no one will change their diets until there is more compassion for the whole process of killing animals.

If you notice the emphasis that all the news media (save the TODAY show) WAS on simply how awful it was that you are being fed sick cows. I could not believe my EYES that the torture and abuse I saw in the videos was passed over or not mentioned at all. Only the fact that they were down because they were sick and being dragged through feces.

We're feeling good about the VEGAN thing. There are 5 new restaurants here in Orlando. There are multiple cooking classes. Books. information! Like WMMs it is not for the lazy.

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Every day to those who give me the opportunity to exercise Spiritual Maturity, I am grateful and give thanks

This is not a time of individual ascension and then dutiful service to teach. . . .
~J~


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:31 pm 
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Location: Homer, Alaska---The journey is the destination.
http://www.grandin.com/

You may find this inspiring. Someone is working on humane slaughter.

LTF


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:09 am 
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Oh MY Yes. :shock: How comforting! :cry: Not! :cry:

http://www.grandin.com/restrain/new.conv.rest.html

Sorry LTF. I hope you were serious in thinking this might be of comfort. It does not comfort me as I have become too sensitive to the suffering of the animals through being a 3rd generation vegetarian.

I'm feeling very nauseated but I will continue to look at what you've given me.

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Every day to those who give me the opportunity to exercise Spiritual Maturity, I am grateful and give thanks

This is not a time of individual ascension and then dutiful service to teach. . . .
~J~


Last edited by Oona on Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:12 am 
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Here's another comfort! :shock:

http://www.grandin.com/humane/elec.stunning.cattle.html

"Cattle are too big to be stunned effectively by a single current passing from the head to the feet. The current may bypass the brain. Even though the heart is stopped by the electrical current, the animal may feel the shock. To induce instant insensibility, the current must enter the brain and cause a grand mal epileptic seizure."

Another problem is that a hand held electrode applied to the head often fails to maintain contact when the animal falls unless it's head is held in a restraing headholder. This may result in the animal feeling the shock.

Use of the stun box floor as an electrode is a poor design because the feet may fail to stay in complete contact with the floor for the entire duration of the stun.
An electric stunner for cattle must have the following features to maintain good animal welfare:


For head only stunning, two electrodes must be applied to the head and held in firm contact with the head when the animal falls. In the New Zealand system the current passes from a neck stanchion to a nose plate. Another alternative would be modification of a chin lift used for religious slaughter. The electrode position would be forehead to chin. Another possible position would be across the head between the eye and the ear, like head only tongs used for pigs. The tong would have to stay attached to the head when the bovine falls. The neck to neck position must NEVER be used because the current may fail to go through the brain. A headholder that holds the animal's head up when the body falls is stronlgy recommended.

To prevent stress on the animal, the current must be applied immediately after the head electrodes are applied. Head restraint devices that cause 5% or more of the cattle to vocalize (moo or bellow) are not acceptable.

Water must be applied to the electrode during the stun to reduce electrical resistance. Some systems have failed due to high electrical resistance through the bovine's hair. This is especially a problem in cattle with long hair. Be careful not to apply excessive amounts of water which may cause the current to be diverted over the surface of the animal instead of passing through the brain.

When head only electrical stunning is used the bovine must be bled within 10 seconds. Head only stunning is often used for Halal slaughter.

The two stage stun described here has been verified by scientific research. If cardiac arrest stunning is desired to stop the heart, the head stun must be applied first by the two electrodes on the head. After the head stun, a second current can be applied to the body to stop the heart. The design of the cardiac arrest electrode is less critical and a hand held probe would be effective. Hand held probes should NOT be used to apply the initial head stun, unless the animal's head or body is supported to prevent the animal from falling away from the electrode.

In some plants, to stop kicking after stunning, an immobilizing current is applied to paralyze the muscles. This current is NOT a substitute for an effective head stun. The first step of the process of electric stunning of cattle must be an initial head stun applied by electrodes which will stay in firm contact with the animal's head when it falls. Immobilization of a conscious animal with a weak electric current is highly aversive. Several scientific studies have shown that immobilization of conscious sensible animals is very detrimental to animal welfare.

When electric stunning is assessed for return to sensibility, immobilization devices must be turned off. The animal may kick. This is a normal sign of a grand mal epileptic seizure. An electric immobilization device will mask the normal tonic (ridgid phase) and clonic (paddling leg movements) of an effective head only electric stun that has induced epileptic activity in the brain. Head only stunning that is reversible is often used in Halal slaughter plants. When cardiac arrest stunning is used, the tonic and clonic phase of the epileptic seizure will be partially blocked by the heart stopping current.
For the initial head stun, an electrical frequency of 50 to 60 Hz is most effective.

Observations in a slaughter plant indicate that a single electrical current passed from the forehead to the side of the body may be effective. The tonic and clonic spasms of a grand mal epileptic seizure were induced by using this position. The body electrode should be isolated from a steel restraining device.

To safely wet the electrodes during the stun, a small stream of water should be applied continuously during the stun. This must NOT be applied by a person holding a hose. It must be applied by a separate pipe system that is NOT touched by people during stunning.

Electric stunning is much more likely to fail and not produce insensibility in dehydrated cattle. I have observed this problem in threee different plants. Even though the New Zealand electric stunner was working perfectly, many animals showed signs of return to sensibility such as blinking and rhythmic breathing. Problems with dehydrated cattle are most likely to occur in cattle that have been trasported long distances. Some animals that have been drinking from ponds or large tanks may refuse to drink from small water troughs with an automatic float. They are afraid of the "shsh" sound when the trough refills, and may refuse to drink in the lairage at the plant. "

NONE of this sounds ok to me. There is NO humane way to slaughter in my opinion.

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Every day to those who give me the opportunity to exercise Spiritual Maturity, I am grateful and give thanks

This is not a time of individual ascension and then dutiful service to teach. . . .
~J~


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:28 am 
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http://www.grandin.com/ritual/qa.cattle ... ility.html

I AM sorry. only another horror story

From a report on a Kosher slaughter house (These are particularly brutal because of the ritual desired)

During my career I have visited over 30 kosher beef plants in the U.S., Canada and other countries. I have also worked on designing restraint equipment to replace shackling and hoisting in kosher slaughter plants. Kosher slaughter without stunning can be done with an acceptable level of welfare when it is done correctly (Grandin, 1994). When shehita is performed correctly with the long knife, the cattle appear not to feel it.
This tape shows atrocious procedures that are NOT performed in any other kosher operation. Removal of the trachea and other internal parts before the animal has become insensible would cause great suffering and pain. Many of the cattle on this tape had this dressing procedure performed when they were still fully sensible. Several cattle were walking around with the trachea and other parts hanging out of them. To provide an acceptable level of welfare the animal MUST be allowed to become fully insensible after shehita before any dressing procedure is done.

This plant also has some serious cattle handling and restraint problems. About 50% of the cattle were vocalizing during handling and restraint. This is due to bad practices such as using an electric prod to position the animal's head in the head holder. In a well run kosher plant the percentage of cattle that would vocalize during handling and restraint would be 5%.

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Every day to those who give me the opportunity to exercise Spiritual Maturity, I am grateful and give thanks

This is not a time of individual ascension and then dutiful service to teach. . . .
~J~


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:36 am 
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Slaughter of any kind is in the mind set of 3D reality - survival mode; but what are these energies doing to the whole planet? This energy awareness is realized by very few. The horrific slaughter of thousands of animals everyday adds a lot of 'black' energy to the planet that needs to be transmuted into Light. How many people even give this a thought? This 'black' energy has a tremendous effect on the planet, more than most people would ever believe: but then there's no point talking about it because people have to come to this awareness on their own.

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:40 am 
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"Since I wrote this letter many statements have been made on the web about how to evaluate this video. My evaluation is based on both scientific studies and my own experiences in kosher plants.

Question 1: Was the animal walking around with it's throat cut still conscious?

The walking animal was definitely fully conscious and ripping of the trachea would have caused great pain. Any animal that walks, lifts it's head, or attempts to get up after slaughter is still aware and conscious. Cattle on the floor that thrashed and kicked but made no attempt to raise their head where unconscious and insensible. Leg kicking is just reflexes, but raising of the head would be an indication of sensibility.

Question 2: Why did shehita fail to induce rapid unconsciousness in some cattle?

I have observed kosher slaughter of thousands of cattle and calves. Some shochets are much more effective than other shochets. The cuts from all the shochets were proper and acceptable from a religious standpoint but some shochets performed cuts that were biologically more effective. Shochets who performed a fast knife stroke at the moment the carotid arteries were cut induced rapid unconsciousness more reliably than shochets who used a slower stroke. A slower stroke may cause the blood vessels to seal off. I have observed that cattle are more likely to attempt to get up when a slow stroke is used. Other variables include the angle and the exact position of the cut. The best shochets are able to cause over 90% of the cattle to collapse within 10 seconds. It is my opinion that shochets should be evaluated on the ability to perform both ritually correct cuts and biologically effective cuts. This could be done by scoring them on the percentage of cattle that collapse within 10 seconds.

Question 3: Does the animal feel the shehita cut?
I have operated the hydraulic controls on restraining boxes that hold cattle in a standing upright position. To determine if the animal felt the shehita cut, I experimented by using less and less pressure to hold the animal's head in the head holder. I put the head holder on so loosely that the animal could have easily pulled it's head out. When the shochet performed the cut, the animal made no attempt to move it's head. The special long knife used in kosher slaughter is very important. When slaughter without prior sunning is performed with a shorter knife, cattle will violently struggle and definitely feel pain. This is due to the point of the knife digging into the incision. To prevent the animal from reacting to the cut, the blade must be long enough so that the end of the knife remains outside the incision. When I operated the restraining box I was amazed that the cattle did not react to the shehita cut.

Question 4: Is unconsciousness instantaneous after the shehita cut?

Several different scientific studies have shown that insensibility after the throat cut is not instantaneous. Most cattle will become unconscious and insensible within 5 to 10 seconds after a biologically effective cut. However, sensibility can last for over a minute in a small percentage of cattle. When I operated the restraining box, I completely released the headholder and all restraints on many animals so that I could observe their reactions after the cut. Most cattle just looked around before they collapsed. They appreared to not be aware that their throats had been cut. To maintain good animal welfare standards, the animal should be held in the restraining box until it collapses.

Question 5: How should the animal be held in position for shehita?

At Agriprocessors the cattle were held in an apparatus that rotated them onto their backs. It is my opinion based on observing many different restraining methods that the method used to hold the animal in position is a much greater animal welfare concern than shehita. I have seen both the very best and the very worst restraining methods.

Some plants restrain the animal by suspending it by a chain attached to the hind leg. This will cause much struggling and bellowing.


Note: I worked near a warehouse in Wilmington De in which I could hear this being done. It is a sound that stays with you.


This cruel method should be banned. In other bad plants the live animal is chained up and dragged across the floor. The rotating box at Agriprocessors is probably more stressful than the best upright box, but it is much better than shackling and hoisting. Meat from animals handled in an abusive manner prior to shehita is technically still kosher but the spirit of religious law has been broken. Jewish principles of kindness to animals are violated when the animal is mistreated prior to shehita.

I recommend that restraining devices should be evaluated with objective scoring. Upright restraint boxes and rotating boxes should be designed and operated in such a manner that they can attain the following scores. One hundred cattle should be observed. The equipment at Agriprocess is capable of passing this welfare audit.


Ninety five percent of cattle should remain silent and not moo, bellow or vocalize when they are entering the box and while they are held in it prior to shehita.

An electric prod can be used on only 25% or less of the cattle to move them into the restraining box. The other 75% must walk in easily with just a tap on the rump.

Ninety nine percent of the cattle must be handled prior to shehita without falling down. Boxes with slanted trip floors that cause the cattle to fall would automatically fail the welfare audit. Rotating boxes must have adjustable side panels and a back rest to fully support the animal during rotation.

Question 6: Why was the trachea (windpipe) ripped out?
I have still not received a satisfactory answer to this question. There are 3 possibilities:

To prevent rumen contents from contaminating the heads.

To facilitate bleeding. Several people gave me this answer. When a second cut is performed to facilitate bleeding, trachea pulling is not the normal procedure.

To loosen lung adhesions to the body cavity so that more cattle would pass for Glatt kosher.

The plant has stopped this procedure and I have never seen this procedure in any other kosher plant. Some of the cattle were definitely conscious and pulling and tearing of the trachea would have caused pain. Agriprocessors also needs to work with their shochets so that they perform biologically effective cuts that will induce rapid loss of consciousness.

That is the end of that particular report. This horror is repeated over and over and over each day. The US consumes mountains (literally) of meat. Many of you do not realize that the vibration you feel that is describes as unpleasant is this vibration. I have satisfied my self that this is not a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:42 am 
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Golda wrote:
Slaughter of any kind is in the mind set of 3D reality - survival mode; but what are these energies doing to the whole planet? This energy awareness is realized by very few. The horrific slaughter of thousands of animals everyday adds a lot of 'black' energy to the planet that needs to be transmuted into Light. How many people even give this a thought? This 'black' energy has a tremendous effect on the planet, more than most people would ever believe: but then there's no point talking about it because people have to come to this awareness on their own.


Thank you Golda. I was posting a similar thought as you posted yours. But how on earth will people ever come to it on their own if it is not brought out into the light. you are correct that they must. Nothing I can do or say will change the mind of one who is not ready. But many who are ready will be activated by seeing the truth. Just like all things.

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:18 am 
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I should have looked over the website first because I first read about Temple Grandin in An Anthropologist on Mars by Oliver Sacks.

She was born autistic but was raised around the slaughter facilities and she had unique ability to communicate with the animals. She realized that she wouldn't be able to stop the slaughter of animals but was able to use her abilities to create more humane facilities. Not all places have adopted them either.

My point was that while there is still animal slaughter there is someone who was compassionate enough to try to change how it is done. There are people who are working on change trying to change how people think about what is done and what they eat.

http://www.templegrandin.com/

Temple Grandin a very talented autistic person.

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I will dance with it like moonlight on water.
I will hold it to myself in a longful embrace that beats perfection
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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:19 am 
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Golda...we are eating plants while they are STILL ALIVE...how can you differentiate when BOTH have consciousness?

granted, grains are harvested after the plant is mostly dead...and fruits and nuts fall from the tree...but they are still ALIVE...until cooked...and we are eating fertilized embroys... I see no difference AT ALL.

as long as it doesn't have eyes...that makes it ok? where do you draw the line.

Until we REAL-I-lize, that we are sustained by the sun's energy...we will continue to kill...vegans just skip the killing all together and eat their "meat" while it is still alive...which when examined seems a lot more brutal to me.

I am not "there" yet...but I do "eat" sunlight...and stand barefoot on mother earth...but I don't pretend that killing one form of life is "better" than another just because one has a face.

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:58 am 
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LearningToFly wrote:
I should have looked over the website first because I first read about Temple Grandin in An Anthropologist on Mars by Oliver Sacks.

She was born autistic but was raised around the slaughter facilities and she had unique ability to communicate with the animals. She realized that she wouldn't be able to stop the slaughter of animals but was able to use her abilities to create more humane facilities. Not all places have adopted them either.

My point was that while there is still animal slaughter there is someone who was compassionate enough to try to change how it is done. There are people who are working on change trying to change how people think about what is done and what they eat.

http://www.templegrandin.com/

Temple Grandin a very talented autistic person.


Yes dear heart. I knew you wouldn't purposly be insentitive. I thank you for this more kindly view. One of the reasons I am so passionate about this is that I too have this gift of communicating with animals. Bless her. Of course it is better to have someone who will work to make this less of a horror for the animals. I look forward to the future distant. When this will no longer happen at all.

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Every day to those who give me the opportunity to exercise Spiritual Maturity, I am grateful and give thanks

This is not a time of individual ascension and then dutiful service to teach. . . .
~J~


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:54 pm 
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Location: Homer, Alaska---The journey is the destination.
I have not read all this thread so I don't know if you all have done this or not but this is an excellent area for the Heart Virtues to be sent.

What a great and beautiful project!

There is a lot of clearing to do here. People, animals, earth, greed, power, injustice.

The meat packing industry has been around a long time. I read a book on it in high school but I don't remember what it was called. It was a bout the meat packing industry in Chicago at the the beginning of the 1900's. So energy can be sent back in time as well as the present and the future.



In compassion and understanding,
LTF

_________________
"One day, I will isolate the part of me that is always present.
I will dance with it like moonlight on water.
I will hold it to myself in a longful embrace that beats perfection
in the hymn of the Songkeeper." One day


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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:16 pm 
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eye r'member (not too long ago)...on m'eye home from store...on foot, w/pack on back...adventure, i paused to visit w/my mumm, tha half-way point...

}her story>>>a brief{ has been "dieAgNosed" w/diaBETty's...beat...an' must re:fine her diet...tOld

so, anyway...settin' at her table...she offers coffee/tea...*OH*, *Thank You* for tha offer *BEAUTY-FULL*...no *Thank You*, i had enough pennies to buy a treat today...lol...while i withdrew a frappacino coffee/kold, uncapped, for sippin/taste/extended...
well *HOLYDOODLE*...by her reaction, y'd think i had just slAughtered something on her plate an' ORDERED HER to eat it...raw an' bloody...*GROSS*!!! :O
she "litterAll" called my choice (it weren't watt SHE would have)...an "abortion"...like drinking spit...an' *GLARED* across at *US*...!!!

eh, well...i found m'eye self *feeling* for tha small bottle of liquid sittin' in between us (me too, could feel tha daggers in "projections")...i appologized, returned tha cap on...*snugged* (w/*LOVE*) put'er back in bag an' *Promise* *HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP* with...when "we" (tha "juice", me, myself an' i) get home...eye IN.VELOPE w/my *heART*...removed it from tha "dumps"...we left...
hmn...aye, too...all ways *Love* m'eye ma re:guardless of her "pelts'...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
what does..."organi-cullY grOwn"...mean, these daze...?

have ya ever noticed (in those "reports" about mutillated bodies) in tha(O)penstories...it's been said that not even tha "scAvengers" will touch those carcasses...once tha "gLads" are gone...?
Hmn...zeta's vats...!!!

clEVE baxter(sp?) sais that plants DO "squeal" when their ends are trEated/tRoughed...also sensitive to 'buddies" woes...connected bi tha "routes"...
mr. emo-toto(sp?) sais...liquid's "proG.RAMMED" by our "words" an' *feelings* for...

tha human body is said to be a walking/talking baggO water...roaming on tha sirFace of tha earth...

does tha picture of a naked/thrashed field/nature skinned idea, appeal to "gLut"...more than 'bawlINg cows...?
mine...?
mine...?
mind...?
eye hEar it takes at least one acre of land to feed an herber (pairs(?)watt aBout a gRove of)...browsers eat all day long an' wanderwanderwander...
a preDator (w/pack) could do a dear a month...asSOles,hOOves...an' bONES
ummm...buttah, that's only if they can "catch" it...on tha run...usually, their mains are sick'Nslower than tha "prime's...apparently, they "thrive" on tha un-healthiest of all...

what's an OMNIvOUR...?

d'joo know that rabbits *Love* to chew off chicken bones...yummy...meet!!!

eye wonder...if a "vegan" uses tha "excuse" of "killing" as tha "reason" of don't eat meat tHangs...why don't all tha anti-killers eat at wendy's an' mcdonalds, taco-bell...is kfc using (real) chickens...*O*wait a minute...i forgot...soya/tofu, another "market"...yes? LOL
ok, question for tha veggie peepol's (note: no disrespect intended...person-alley, my diet consists of what is "present"...er, available if eye'm REALLY "hungry" for a "meal", sometimes is flowers, from tha side of road)...apparently tha "scientists" are working on growing "meat/muscle tissue" in a "lab"...on slabs...this form will have NO LIFE experience to pass on...how does this *feel*...?...etAble...?...or knot...?

what is a "harVest"...?
IN.VEST.MEANT...?
"reap" watt one sows...?

yes...'tis very *GoOoD* to know watt one "spREADS" aRound...eye wonder if tha "pRay animals"...like children...are being "trapped" between tha...no gods an' no goods...superficial's...?

what's tha *SOURCE* of *LOVE*...?

mmmmm...LTF...yes, *CLEAR.RING.UP* hOURSelves...
*Thank You Being*...*heARTs* :)

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 Post subject: Re: Go vegan and nobody gets hurt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:23 pm 
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thanks Rue for that very informative and disturbing article & video. (I have to admit I can't watch the video because it would be too affective ..) :cry:

anyway here is a related article on the subject of public school food programmes.



Quote:
A MIRACLE IN WISCONSIN

OCTOBER 14. In Appleton, Wisconsin, a revolution has occurred. It’s taken place in the Central Alternative High School. The kids now behave. The hallways aren’t frantic. Even the teachers are happy. The school used to be out of control. Kids packed weapons. Discipline problems swamped the principal’s office. But not since 1997.

What happened? Did they line every inch of space with cops? Did they spray valium gas in the classrooms? Did they install metal detectors in the bathrooms? Did they build holding cells in the gym?

Afraid not. In 1997, a private group called Natural Ovens began installing a healthy lunch program. Huh? Fast-food burgers, fries, and burritos gave way to fresh salads, meats prepared with old-fashioned recipes and whole grain bread. Fresh fruits were added to the menu. Good drinking water arrived. Vending machines were removed.

As reported in a newsletter called Pure Facts, “Grades are up, truancy is no longer a problem, arguments are rare, and teachers are able to spend their time teaching.”

Principal LuAnn Coenen, who files annual reports with the state of Wisconsin, has turned in some staggering figures since 1997. Drop-outs? Students expelled? Students discovered to be using drugs? Carrying weapons? Committing suicide? Every category has come up ZERO. Every year.

Mary Bruyette, a teacher, states, “I don't have to deal with daily discipline issues; I don’t have disruptions in class or the difficulties with student behavior I experienced before we started the food program.” One student asserted, “Now that I can concentrate I think it’s easier to get along with people.” What a concept---eating healthier food increases concentration.

Principal Coenen sums it up: “I can’t buy the argument that it’s too costly for schools to provide good nutrition for their students. I found that one cost will reduce another. I don’t have the vandalism. I don’t have the litter. I don’t have the need for high security.”

At a nearby middle school, the new food program is catching on. A teacher there, Dennis Abram, reports, “I’ve taught here almost 30 years. I see the kids this year as calmer, easier to talk to. They just seem more rational. I had thought about retiring this year and basically I’ve decided to teach another year---I’m having too much fun!"?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Pure Facts, the newsletter that ran the story, is published by a non-profit organization called The Feingold Association, which has existed since 1976. Part of its mission is to “generate public awareness of the potential role of foods and synthetic additives in behavior, learning and health problems. The program is based on a diet eliminating synthetic colors, synthetic flavors, and the preservatives BHA, BHT, and TBHQ.”

Thirty years ago, Dr. Feingold had a breakthrough in proving the connection between these negative factors in food and the lives of children. Hailed as a revolutionary advance, Feingold’s findings were soon trashed by the medical Cartel, since those findings threatened the drugs-for-everything, disease-model concept of modern healthcare. But Feingold’s followers have kept his work alive.

If what happened in Appleton, Wisconsin, takes hold in many other communities across America, perhaps the ravenous corporations who invade school space with their vending machines and junk food will be tossed out on their behinds. It could happen. And perhaps ADHD will become a dinosaur. A non-disease that was once attributed to errant brain chemistry. And perhaps Ritalin, et al will be seen as just another toxic chemical that was added to the bodies of kids in a crazed attempt to put a lid on behavior that, in part, was the result of a subversion of the food supply.

Obviously what is needed is some major changes. Equally obviously, the drug companies aren’t going to initiate it. They’re busy estimating the size of their potential markets. They’re building their chemical pipelines into the minds and bodies of the young. Time to say, “No more.”


as far as justifying it (the diet choice) I don't claim to be any expert on this but I guess going with instinct is what works, example, plants just seem to be a lower order life form in terms of consciousness and hence ability to experience pain as we know it seems much less, when they are used as food. in fact, in many cases the best parts of plants is their flowering and fruit parts which is their seeds.

whereas the mammals seems to be closer to humans in every sense and the hence karma done by mechanical culling is moreso, IMO. and the plant diet seems to incur less pain into the planet as a whole, as Golda mentioned.

then obviously you have the example of butchery where if it was done personally, by hand by every meat eater -- WOULD THEY DO THE KILLING THEMSELVES - ? be honest - my guess is in many cases no. but because they have others (a factory) do it for them they can more easily put he whole process and all it involves out of their mind.

there is also the issue of tradition, for example, the eskimos who use a meat diet such as fish, seals etc, because their environment suits them for it. cold climate, physical lifestyle etc. however, the more typical modern urban or rural dweller who often works in a climate control office & similar lifestyle has really no actual bio NEED for all that meat - again IMO. (I'm speaking of need not preference, which is partly a cultural factor, could be part based on advertising etc.)

oh yes , you also have scriptural diets. for example, the daniel diet in the Bible. vegetables and water. and yet he could foretell the future. etc. he disavowed the 'king's rich diet' because 'his Lord' guided him that way. he didn't try apparently to change the king, but he did stick with his diet. so this is all very personal and subjective and should not diminish the actual crimes done on conscious animals who do feel and suffer immensely by the factory-farm methods of the post-industrial state. (the bladerunner state, in a sense)

I don't have actual legalistic proof that the plant kingdon is a lower order conciousness life form (less suffering caused) but it is instinct and maybe the proofs will show up elsewhere.



Last edited by oba on Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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