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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:15 pm 
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(Pages 505 & 506-The Dohrman Prophecy)

reminds me of this:

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:18 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:21 pm 
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seed wrote:
Image


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(Pages 505 & 506-The Dohrman Prophecy)

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:26 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:40 am 
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From reading the comments, it seems to me to be this conversation that takes place on pages 505 and 506 that has brought up questions about Simon's perception of wholeness.

What i believe is that this conversation is metaphorical. Simon is explaining how the Grand Portal is opening inside of us one at a time....Maia is in the process of realizing this within herself and will be demonstrating this truth through her living example, to all of us.....The Christ non-personalized is the Grand Portal.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:53 am 
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That rings true.

First attention: Literal interpretations = intellect.

Second attention: Symbolic interpretations = mythic/symbolic/poetic/artistic/dream consciousness...realm of the genetic mind.

By suggesting that we read all the characters as aspects of ourselves, James is indicating the importance of the second attention.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:02 pm 
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The Watcher wrote:
I have been waiting to ask you nathan - for the old folk I am who doesn't always 'get it' would you like to explain to me in simple yet clear terminology why it is that simon manipulates and is lying.
(If you didnt say he was lying, just ignore that comment - the thread wandered off and I cant be bothered revisiting the older posts to establish what it was that was said - just in the spirit of things can you express why this is your understanding and how it matters.
thanks.
Also - if you want to please provide a page number(s) to referrence the aspects in which you see this about Simon and I will have a read up...your assistance is appreciated

The Watcher wrote:
You can choose a scene. I'll show you. Let's go into it together.

Well personally, I would rather focus on the character Anmael as a matter of interest, and this "How Simon Manipulates" is something you want to focus upon so you choose the scene that might best show what it is you are seeing and I will listen and perhaps comment.

Personally we would perhaps all prefer a different focus or subject, but this thread has its own subject, and I'm patiently waiting until another is as interested as me to go into it together. I'm not interested in explaining to others how things are. This is the difference between opinions or manipulation, and assistance, if you will. Assistance means you may know something or can do something that another has to learn, but they have to do it, and you merely assist, so the learning is quickened to great lengths. I'm not going to do your homework, or offer some comfortable space to comment when you feel like. But you are on the good way if I may say.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:48 pm 
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hidelight wrote:
As active members of the forum will know, my thesis is that Joseph is the real sorcerer and Simon not. Now I wish to defend it partially by pointing out specifically how what Simon says is diverging from what James himself says and the WingMakers Materials. The first point is the Earth. Simon says the intelligence is not in the heart, but that the Earth is the intelligence and that we are, in effect, ourselves this Earth. In my view this is limiting ourselves to this beautiful place which is actually, in the long run, reducing it to a prison.


Can you provide the exact quote where Simon says the intelligence is not in the heart?

In my view the Earth is intelligent and we are connected to that intelligence at the quantum level. In other words, we are not separate from Earth. It is us and we are it, on one level.

On another level, this unified Earth/Human consciousness is also integral with the consciousness of the central sun, the galaxy, and ultimately, First Source.

Quote:
James says clearly that the Earth is a host consciousness, he has not said it is ours, our own as a consciousness, but the Philosophy states ours is an oversoul, inhabiting this planet, naturally.


These are different words expressing the same underlying concept. This looks like a MOTE alert to me. We can "go into it" but to what purpose? Intellectual hairsplitting?

Quote:
And in the Camelot interview he points out that the saviourship-model can take many forms including Earth/Nature, which is precisely what Simon is representing. Alex also pointed out how Simon is stimulating saviourship, like calling the baby we have to wait for being the Grand Portal. We can tackle every single of Simon's manipulations in this thread.


The saviouship model is not a "bad" thing. It is part of the process of evolving consciousness. If you understand the "baby" as the Divine Child being birthed within each of us and within humanity, not as a physical savior embodied in one person, then you understand the deeper level of what Simon is assisting to become a conscious understanding. I don't see it as "manipulation," with a negative connotation. For example, a midwife can "manipulate" a baby so it is facing the right direction to proceed smoothly down the birth canal. Is this a bad thing? No, it is assisting the process.

Quote:
Through this deeper understanding, the entity can, through the human instrument, transform the three-dimensional context into a self-aware, integrated component of the Universe of Wholeness. This magnificent and purposeful endeavor produces the urge within the human instrument to seek out its wholeness and re-experience its divine connection to First Source.

This search, in large measure, is the fuel that drives the individual to seek out and explore the evolution/saviorship model of existence. It provides the individual with the motivation to seek help and guidance from a specific subgroup of the hierarchy, and in so doing, develop a sense of belonging and unity. It is this very same sense of belonging and unity that helps to catalyze a growing awareness of the underlying union between the human instrument, the Entity Consciousness, the Universe of Wholeness, Source Intelligence, and First Source.

This is why the evolution/saviorship model is so critical as a component to the Grand Experiment. It is the stage whereby the human instrument develops a sense of unity and belonging. A sense of relationship to some grand and encompassing vision. This is why the hierarchy nurtures saviors. It is also why the feelings of inadequacy and insecurity are developed and nurtured by the hierarchy. It actually hastens the unification of humanity, which in turn, will hasten and lead to the unification of humanity with the Universe of Wholeness. - Philosophy 2

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:13 pm 
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You know, I always repeat that nothing is wrong. We are all assisting to some extent. But I don't think in terms of positive or negative when I point out in detail of the hidden harmony. To me it doesn't make any difference if I have to assist to the insight how Simon is manipulating for example, or how Joseph is the true sorcerer. But with Simon it's more words, whereas with Joseph it's actions.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:15 pm 
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hidelight wrote:
As active members of the forum will know, my thesis is that Joseph is the real sorcerer and Simon not. Now I wish to defend it partially by pointing out specifically how what Simon says is diverging from what James himself says and the WingMakers Materials. The first point is the Earth. Simon says the intelligence is not in the heart, but that the Earth is the intelligence and that we are, in effect, ourselves this Earth. In my view this is limiting ourselves to this beautiful place which is actually, in the long run, reducing it to a prison.


I personally do not resonate with the title of this thread and am interested also in what Simon says that gives you this opinion? I have wondered if you have read the whole book? I am simply responding, not judging.

Not long after you began this thread I ran across this passage by 'Simon' which seems to contradict your opinion above....



"Life constantly beckons you to engage with it using your heart's intelligence and the virtues therein, like forgiveness, compassion, understanding, humility, appreciation, and valor. Life is the partner to your development. It is not a passive observer, but rather it is your Presence entering your human consciousness, encouraging you to apply what you know--not the facts and recitations of your head put there by others in your world, but the virtues you instinctively know in your heart."


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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:16 pm 
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But it doesn't. Do you want me to go into this? I mean us.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Your 'first point' is that Simon says that 'intelligence is not in the heart' and here he clearly says it is. That is the only point I am making.


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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Okay. I started this thread after a quote from Shayalana in another one, to which he would have said it, but it doesn't matter to me (I don't know the page by heart), every single situation put to the fore with Simon or Joseph I can show anyone exactly how what I'm saying is correct, if you only have the patience and interest.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:39 pm 
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You should post what you wish Nathan. At this point, I do not feel that you have given evidence to support the title of this thread and that is what you have been asked by more than one. I believe that a discussion with anyone here would have to begin with you attempting to give 'evidence' to your point.

I personally don't resonate with the 'picture' you are trying to 'paint' about the character of Simon. I have read the book twice now and am wondering if you have read it because if not, you may (or may not) have a different impression. Another thing, Joseph is a 'catalyst' in my mind but he does not carry a strong role for me in this story.

This is only my impression for whatever it is worth....which is all I can give. I realize that interpretation of the characters is subjective.


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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:18 pm 
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Every single situation put to the fore with Simon or Joseph I can show anyone exactly how what I'm saying is correct, if you only have the patience and interest.

I'm not interested in explaining to others how things are. This is the difference between opinions or manipulation, and assistance, if you will. Assistance means you may know something or can do something that another has to learn, but they have to do it, and you merely assist, so the learning is quickened to great lengths. I'm not going to do your homework, or offer some comfortable space to comment when you feel like.


Quiet oxymoronic from an observational perspective, I think.
Now I am in agreement with most of the members who have expressed their thoughts on your manner and questioned the intention of your creating this thread topic - however I don't agree with Deborah or Caroline in their overall and obvious derision - noting that they place you and I in their same basket of opinion - I find your style (and theirs) too being far too oxymoronic to be a standard for healthy and co-creative human communication with the intention of mutual benefit to all participating.

I do understand where some are confusing this with the 'guru syndrome' based on what I understand about it but am disinterested in whether it is fact or fiction in relation to who you are or what your intentions are - the title of this thread is on appearance of its unfolding, misleading and more honestly might be titled 'How Nathan Manipulates' but appearances can be deceiving, and anyhoo - as Karen points out and I concur, manipulation in itself is not a bad thing. For that matter it is not a good thing. It is a neutral thing when incorporated with 6HVs as the intent is simply to lend support to the collective with the intent to uncover that which is hidden.


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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:54 pm 
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No, I won't give any evidence. I am well aware of the ambivalence of "evidence" - we all like to explain things differently. And yet, I have evidence. Of course. I wouldn't write these things. But I won't do your homework, and it is not my concern if any one of you finds this out for yourselves. But you have been caught into the web of the WingMakers Materials, and I'm giving you the most important key of the novel. Simon and Joseph are both absolutely not what they seem. Do with this what you want. My only wish is to share everything. But you have to want it too. I already have it. I don't want anything from anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: How CHRISTOPHE MANIPULATES
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:40 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:54 pm 
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You're looking for love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU0xtw-5MPE

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:23 pm 
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We are here exploring these materials. This is our primary interest, to listen and explore together and evolve our understanding together. We are all equally FS. This exploration is beneficial to all of us whether we are firmly holding on to our belief systems or jettisoning them like ballast. There may be other motives, but they too are evolving through time. Does it really matter if we are flying at full speed or resisting with full force? It's always movement and rest. As we all move into exploration mode these conversations will soar with us. Please share everything.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Relative to TDP, I tried to begin in "Reading the novel" and now I try here to. I'll keep trying. But it is not my decision. It will be the curriculum of the one who is really interested enough to ask and explore with me, with all of us together, into this mysterious possibility that would toss everything we ever believed around and back to love itself.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:22 pm 
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Please share everything.

Image
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hidelight

I created this forum once upon a time and offered an idea where everyone could share in their own thread 'everything' they felt they wanted to. Seems 'peeking' complaining, silently observing and general disturbance was all that most of those who used that forum wanted to do so I suggested they go and create their own for that purpose as that is not why I created the forum for use of.
They did what I suggested and I learned a little more about the nature of deception in people, peeking, hiding, shouting, abusing, accusing, vilifying, arguing, distracting, distorting...
...it hasn't stopped me from appreciating the potential in people to connect with their higher self and dispense with the ego personality disorders displayed by they who would rather deny the Quantum Presence even a small say in governing response and behavior through the human instrument...early days these are...and the most likely reason I continue to find hope in the human potential is the understanding of my journey and choices made without the governance of Quantum Presence...and how I changed that pattern to accommodate - it can be done.

...More on QP here:
Image

here:
Image

and here:
Image

Encourage
Abundance
Event Temple
Simplicity



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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:31 pm 
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What is really already being shared deep into the unconscious layers of consciousness, is the great approach. The most important thing. To go into something together, explore together, ask together, listen for one another together, think together. But we needed something great and immense, something that would trigger the attention in such a strange way that at first even the knowledgeable would hesitate greatly, but then it is being revealed, but the thing that will be really revealed and see daylight for the first time, would be this going into something together. By strangers.

Like a waterfall nothing can hold back.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:48 pm 
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Three members have now ask you directly to post a quote from the DP that supports your perspectives that Simon "said" the things you claim he said - which IS the topic YOU chose to discuss Nat ...

perhaps from your non-response (Ignorance) of these questions, we are left to assume that your perspective is not actually in the dialog but something YOU read "between the lines" - as you claim you do with our posts as well .... I find it very interesting that this supposed, extra sensory perception that you have, is able to identify human qualities, in non-human, fictional characters ... you chose the topic Nat ... and we are all trying to discuss it with you ... but you resist the awareness our perspectives offer, and defer to the one you "imagined" as the "true identity" of character in the story known as Simon

obviously you are seeing something no one else sees ... is that because you have a special gift - a lens that allows you to read things that aren't there ? Or maybe you believe that the novel was written in a code (that only you have the key to) because James told us that the language was embedded with elements not found in other narratives .... do you believe that what the LTO embed in their works is another Language ?

you say you WON'T give evidence ... I say there is none ... as usual you just make things up to draw attention to yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:13 am 
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hidelight wrote:
You're looking for love.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Like you know anything about it? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't click onto any "homemade" links because of the high risk of having my computer infected with malicious code and because both you and Bill hate James and these works I definitely don't trust you. It's just part of my LOVE for discernment and just doing it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:




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 Post subject: Re: How Simon Manipulates
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:13 am 
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I'm on my fifth reading of TDP and nothing CV has said so far resonates in the least and this is why I say this thread is not about TDP it's about CV trying to be a guru. He doesn't care about any alignments or resonance with the story he cares about followers who will believe anything he says and God help them if they have any sense of self, ( the small self that is a part of the Whole), because he knows they will not be willing to be ONE with his ego such as seed claims to be. CV has studied many a guru and especially Destini to see how gullible people can be in following a guru type person. He was thrown out of their forum as well as many others for his obnoxious behavior and has crashed this forum being banned from it as well. CV wants uncritical, unquestioning, zombie like followers because he feels he is lacking in his own power that to suck it from others will fullfill his need for it personally. However, the darker energies that are manipulating him don't want him to know this and this is precisely what the chapter about the Annunaki in TDP is about and how they work. CV doesn't have the subtlety, or nuance or the degree of deviousness that the Annunaki display and have honed over a long period of time. CV's arrogance always gets the better of him and makes him prime to be used by these darker energies without him being fully aware of it and thinking he knows it all when its his ignorance of the real source of what he thinks he knows is controlling him. There is no heart in it just the lower mind and seed is as entangled in it as he is because she totally agrees with not requiring a self for anything. Why? Because with that belief devious darker energies have a hay day in controlling the holders of it. Funny how both CV and seed still use the word "I" being so totally ignorant of how much it is being manipulated and preaching adamantly to others here that they need to be as ignorant about themselves as they are. As to Bill, it has already been established he hasn't read TDP nor does he have any intention, "anytime soon" to read it. This he thinks , qualifies him to discuss it with those who have read it and for some , more than once. Both Bill and CV disrupt anyone who sincerely wants to discuss TDP because both have a need to appear to know more than James and Lyricus about what is offered here and is why I say both have an Odedipus Complex and much much worse going on in their obvious chosen ignorance. If anything CV, seed and Bill are good exercise in applying the 6 Heart Virtues and honing them, they certianly give us tons of practice if not through repetition alone. :lol:



Here is where CV says Simon lies, his post on my thread Simon says...and yes it is his usual incoherence or bait depending on how you look at it. :roll:

Quote:
Hidelight(CV) wrote:

It is a consciousness of itself. I am another expression. Simon lies. I am a smile.

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