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 Post subject: Could James be Oprah Winfrey?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:41 pm 
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OK....maybe you think I'm coming in here with my party pooper hat on, but my concern is growing....I fear that this community might be heading in the direction of becoming another cult.
The Virtues Project meets The Secret meets Sacred Geometry meets Oprah and everyone is living happily ever after.


I really enjoyed being here, I even participated and learned for a few years but now I see something happening that sets off my alarm bells...and so the feeling of dread is back.


For many years I was an active member of the Baha'i Faith. The general goal was to build quantum communities (more than 200 countries actually have national and local Baha'i centers... they' ve had since 1844 to get that far... with individual members working on the acquisition of virtues.

I sat through project after project.
In the nineties, long before the WM site came up my Baha'i community hosted The Virtues Project (actually, this was one of the better projects ...and it was started by a member of the Bahai Faith.. Linda Kavelin Popov. )
Both Gurdjieff and later Baha'i groups helped me experience many inner transformations; even my non-Bahai relatives
had to admit that I had changed for the better.
But over the years that big dream that through our efforts the world at large would become a better place faded.

Which reminds me: the Baha'is also have a GP promise. GP stands for Great Peace. No sign of it so far. Not even the Lesser Peace happened; an agreement between the governments of the world, which was to appear at the end of the 20th century.

I saw very little transformation going on around me. People not only insisted on holding on to their habitual mechanical behavior patterns, they set out to sit in judgment of the other members' progress. The teachings only seemed to be feeding their egos. Including mine, I admit, as my disappointment and hostility grew.
Members were simply unaware that this process was creating large-scale hypocricy on one side, and anger and frustration on the other and with the debates on the Internet the whole organization became entrenched in duality when Unity in Diversity was their main slogan. Thus it developed a cult flavor. The Internet is full of evidence today.
One scholar after another was growled out for not having or showing enough "heart".
Intelligent conversation, or the questioning of new documents from the beloved Universal House of Justice became impossible, as the Enthusiastics immediately spotted and scorned anyone whose face showed the slightest frown. "Everyone here is united except YOUUUU!!!!"
Heard it more than once.

And here I am again. Reminding people that heart must not be confused with emotion. Will I be shunned again for it?


When I found the WMM I thought this is where FS is now expressing ITself.
Here was the old Bahai message... balanced and strong, too. The new branch that sprouted from the tree of Baha'i, Theosophy and Gurdjieff.
The right place to continue with my inner trip, while again I could be looking forward to yet another GP.
And I was so sure this time there would be no major disappointment.
But I see the pattern is repeating and I'm fading quickly.

Not that I have anything against virtues, or using visualization techniques to aquire them.
This is all great stuff. Way to go!

I just had these hopes that the WM family would not fall into the same trap the other organizations did.

Don't want to mention any specific incidents nor call names but I will say this:

Unless people understand that their
hearty enthusiasm can easily become heady fanaticism the effect of James' efforts will be less than zero.

And yes, I have checked myself for projection here, and am applying my knowledge in my personal life. But that is my business.

James has started a new movement. And I love it. But I don't want to see it become yet another organized religion.
Nor do I want to see his followers behave like they are the chosen ones.


ulli

Lao Tse:


Cultivate Virtue in your self,
And Virtue will be real.
Cultivate it in the family,
And Virtue will abound.
Cultivate it in the village,
And Virtue will grow.
Cultivate it in the nation,
And Virtue will be abundant.
Cultivate it in the universe,
And Virtue will be everywhere.

Therefore look at the body as body;
Look at the family as family;
Look at the village as village;
Look at the nation as nation;
Look at the universe as universe.

How do I know the universe is like this?
By looking!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:46 pm 
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For anyone who wants to go beyond the sacred number six:
there should be enough virtues herev to place around the heart to form a perfect circle:



Linda Kavelin's Virtues Project:

http://www.virtuesproject.com/index.php


Acceptance -- Embracing life on its own terms. Acceptance allows us to bend without breaking in the face of tests.

Accountability -- The willingness to take full responsibility for our choices.

Appreciation -- Seeing the good in life. Freely expressing gratitude.

Assertiveness -- Telling the truth about what is just, setting clear boundaries.

Awe -- Reverence and wonder, deep respect for the source of life.

Beauty -- A sense of wonder and reverence for the harmony, colour, and loveliness of the world. Calling on our creativity to add to the beauty in the world.

Caring -- Giving tender attention to the people and things that matter to us. Listening with compassion, helping with kindness.

Charity -- A giving heart, a generous way of viewing others and caring for their needs.

Cheerfulness -- Seeing the bright side, looking for the good in whatever happens.

Cleanliness -- Keeping our bodies, our thoughts and our spaces clean. An environment of order and beauty brings peace to our souls.

Commitment -- Caring deeply about a person, a goal or a belief. Willingness to give our all and keep our promises.

Compassion -- Deep empathy for the suffering of others. Compassion flows freely from the heart when we let go of judgments and seek to understand.

Confidence -- A sense of assurance that comes from having faith in ourselves and in life. Confidence allows us to trust that we have the strength to cope with whatever happens.

Consideration -- Giving careful thought to the needs of others. Holding a decision in a contemplative and thoughtful way.

Contentment -- The awareness of sufficiency, a sense that we have enough and we are enough. Appreciating the simple gifts of life.

Cooperation -- Working together for a common goal, calling on the different gifts each of us has to offer.

Courage -- Transforms fear into determination. Embracing life fully, without holding back, doing what must be done even when it is difficult or risky.

Courtesy -- Treating others with kindness, tact and graciousness.

Creativity -- The power of imagination. Being open to inspiration, which ignites our originality.

Decisiveness -- Firmness of mind in taking a stand, reaching a conclusion, making a decision. It requires both courage and discernment.

Detachment -- Experiencing our feelings without allowing them to control us. Stepping back and thoughtfully choosing how we will act rather than just reacting.

Devotion -- Commitment to something we care about deeply. Wholehearted service to our life’s purpose.

Dignity -- Honoring the worth of all people, including ourselves and treating everyone with respect.

Diligence -- Doing what needs to be done with care, concentration and single-pointed attention, giving our absolute best.

Discernment -- Applying the wisdom of our intuition to discover what is essential and true, with contemplative vigilance. Clarity of the soul.

Endurance -- Practicing perseverance and patience when obstacles arise hones our character and educates our souls. We welcome all that we are here to learn.

Enthusiasm -- Being filled with spirit. Excitement about life and openness to the wonders each day holds. Acting wholeheartedly, with zeal and eagerness, holding nothing back.

Excellence -- Giving our best to any task we do and any relationship we have.

Fairness -- Seeking justice, giving each person their share, making sure that everyone’s needs are met.

Faith -- A relationship of trust. Belief in the reality of Grace.

Faithfulness -- Loyalty to our beliefs, regardless of what happens. Being true to the people we love.

Fidelity -- Abiding by an agreement, treating it as a sacred covenant. Complete faithfulness in our relationships.

Flexibility -- The ability to adapt and change amid the fluctuating circumstances of life. Going with the flow.

Forbearance -- Tolerating hardship with good grace. Not allowing the trials of life to steal our joy.

Forgiveness -- Overlooking mistakes, and being willing to move forward with a clean slate. Forgiving others frees us from resentment. Forgiving ourselves is part of positive change.

Fortitude -- Strength of character. The will to endure no matter what happens, with courage and patience.

Friendliness -- A spiritual essential. Reaching out to others with warmth and caring. The willingness to be an intimate companion.

Generosity -- Giving fully, sharing freely. Trust that there is plenty for everyone.

Gentleness -- Moving wisely, touching softly, speaking quietly and thinking kindly.

Grace -- Openness to the bounties of life, trusting that we are held in God’s love through all circumstances. Reflecting gentleness and beauty in the way we act, speak and move.

Gratitude -- Freely expressing thankfulness and appreciation to others and for the gifts of life.

Helpfulness -- Doing useful things that make a difference to others. Taking time for thoughtfulness.

Honesty -- Being truthful, sincere, open, and genuine. The confidence to be ourselves.

Honor -- Living with a sense of respect for what we know is right. Living up to the virtues of our character. Keeping our agreements with integrity.

Hope -- Looking to the future with trust and faith. Optimism in the face of adversity.

Humanity -- Having an attitude of caring and mercy to all people.

Humility -- Being open to every lesson life brings, trusting that our mistakes are often our best teachers. Being thankful for our gifts instead of boastful.

Idealism -- Caring about what is right and meaningful in life. Daring to have big dreams and then acting as if they are possible.

Independence -- Self-reliance. Making our own choices confidently without undue influence from others. Perceiving the truth, with trust in our own discernment.

Initiative -- Daring to be original. Using our creativity to bring something new into the world.

Integrity -- Standing on moral high ground. Keeping faith with our ideals and our agreements.

Joyfulness -- An inner wellspring of peace and happiness. Enjoying the richness of life. Finding humor, even in the midst of hard times.

Justice -- Being fair in all we do. Making amends when we have hurt or wronged others. Protecting everyone’s rights, including our own.

Kindness -- Showing compassion. Giving tender attention in ways that brings others happiness.

Love -- The connection between one heart and another. Attraction, affection and caring for a person, a place, an idea, and for life itself.

Loyalty -- Unwavering faithfulness and committment to people and ideas we care about, through good times and bad.

Mercy -- Blessing others with our compassion and forgiveness. Extending our tenderness beyond what is just or deserved.

Mindfulness -- Living reflectively and meaningfully, with conscious awareness of our actions, our words and our thoughts.

Moderation -- Being content with enough. Using self-discipline to create balance in our lives and to keep from overdoing. Healthy stewardship of our time and resources.

Modesty -- Self-respect and quiet confidence. Accepting praise with humility and gratitude. A sense of respectful privacy about our bodies.

Nobility -- Having high moral standards. Doing the right thing. Keeping faith with our true value as spiritual beings.

Obedience -- Following what we know is right. Compliance with the law. Abiding by our deepest integrity and conquering our misplaced passions.

Openness -- Willingness to consider new ideas. Listening to others with humility and sincerity. Being receptive to the blessings and surprises of life.

Orderliness -- Creating an environment of peace and order. Planning step by step instead of going in circles.

Patience -- Waiting peacefully. Quiet hope and faith that things will turn out right.

Peacefulness -- Inner calm and tranquility. Giving up the love of power for the power of love. Resolving conflict in a just and gentle way.

Perceptiveness -- Clarity of insight. Understanding that is intuitive, discerning and accurate.

Perseverance -- Staying the course for however long it takes. Steadfastness and persistence in pursuing our goals.

Prayerfulness -- A relationship of faith and gratitude with a power and presence greater than ourselves. A conversation with God.

Purity -- A process of freeing ourselves day by day from influences and attachments that keep us from being true to ourselves and to what we know is right. Physical and spiritual cleanliness.

Purposefulness -- Awareness of the meaningfulness of our lives. Living by a clear vision and focusing our energy on the goal before us.

Reliability -- Being dependable. Being a promise keeper. Taking responsibility with trustworthiness.

Respect -- An attitude of honoring oneself and others through our words and actions. Treating every person with dignity and courtesy.

Responsibility -- The willingness to be accountable for our choices and also for our mistakes. Taking on what is ours to do with strength and reliability.

Reverence -- An awareness of the sacredness of life. Living with wonder and faith. Having a routine of reflection.

Righteousness -- Living by a code of spiritual rectitude. Impeccable integrity to what we know is right. Calling ourselves gently back when we go off track.

Sacrifice -- The willingness to give up what is important to us for what we know is more important. Giving our all for our beliefs. Making our life a sacred offering.

Self-Discipline -- The self control to do only what we truly choose to do, without being blown off course by our desires. Establishing healthy and ennobling habits.

Serenity -- Tranquility of spirit, with trust and faith that all will be well. Peacefulness in the midst of trials.

Service -- Doing helpful things that make a difference to others. Investing excellence in everything we do. The contribution we make is the fruitage of our lives.

Sincerity -- Being open and genuine. Our words and actions reflect a truthful heart.

Steadfastness -- Being steady, persevering and dependable. Having the strength to remain true to our purpose in spite of obstacles that arise.

Strength -- The inner power to withstand whatever comes. Endurance in the midst of tests.

Tact -- Telling the truth kindly. Thinking before we speak, aware of how deeply our words affect others. Discerning what to say, when it is timely to say it, and what is better left unsaid.

Temperance -- Moderation in our speech and our appetites. Using self-restraint in the midst of temptation.

Thankfulness -- An attitude of gratitude for living, learning, loving and being. Generosity in expressing appreciation. Focusing on the blessings in our lives.

Tolerance -- Being open to differences. Refraining from judgments. Patience and forgiveness with others and ourselves. Accepting things that we wish were different with humor and grace.

Trust -- Having faith. Positive expectation that all will be well. Having confidence that the right thing will come about without trying to control it or make it happen. Being sure, in the depths of our being, that there is some gift or learning in everything that happens.

Trustworthiness -- Being worthy of the trust others place in us. When we give our word, we stand by it. Keeping our agreements faithfully.

Truthfulness -- Truth is the bedrock of integrity on which we build all our other virtues. An ongoing commitment to live by what is most real and authentic in our own nature. Honesty in all our dealings.

Understanding -- Being insightful in our perceptions of ideas and feelings. Listening with compassion and accuracy to others’ feelings.

Unity -- Inclusiveness. Finding common ground in our diversity. Seeking peace in all circumstances.

Uprightness -- Following what is right and moral. Standing up for honesty and justice. Living in integrity.

Wisdom -- Having a discerning mind, based on experience and mindfulness. Making wise decisions based on our deepest intuition.

Zeal -- Fervent enthusiasm for what we believe to be important. Living by a strong sense of the value of life and faith.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:50 pm 
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i hear you, ulli...thank you.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:50 pm 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Ulli[/i]

OK....maybe you think I'm coming in here with my party pooper hat on, but.....

[/quote]

Hi there Ulli and Ajumaaree,
great to see you back!

I don't view you as party pooping at all.....you're simply offering another point of view.....thank you.

From my perspective, the new materials are building on the previous ones and forming the foundations for the "skyscraper" as James calls it.

Funnily enough, just before the new site appeared, I had a very vivid dream where I was stood in front of a skyscraper which had a crane on top constructing higher levels.

[img]http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/41444/2/istockphoto_41444_top_30_floors_1_lincoln_st_under_construction_boston_ma.jpg[/img]

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:56 pm 
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Thanks for the heads up Ulli!

Good to hear from you again. Don't be a stranger!

Love,
Kimberlee


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:00 pm 
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To elaborate a bit more in case someone out there is willing to go down the knowledge avenue with me.

ulli, speaking from the heart

http://www.godwithoutreligion.com/interview.shtml

In God Without Religion you state that religions have contributed to centuries of conflict and warfare. Do you honestly believe that if the world turns away from religion there will be less conflict among nations? Aren't you being a bit idealistic?

War is caused not so much by religion itself as by the ignorance and narrow viewpoints it fosters. In turning its back on organized religion, humanity could collectively end the phenomenon of war by replacing ignorance with knowledge. Getting to know more about people everywhere and empathizing with their needs, we would then embrace an increasingly expansive identity. Eventually we would be incapable of warfare, because we would realize that violence against another was also violence against ourselves. This view may indeed sound idealistic, but so did the ideas of Mohandas Gandhi, Albert Einstein, Martin Luther King Jr., and Nelson Mandela. A certain amount of idealism is necessary for change.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:04 pm 
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Hi Russ

Dreaming of a crane on top of a sky scraper means you are heading to the local barber shop.
Or perhaps you are worried about going bald.

naughty ulli


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:28 pm 
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Why oprah winfrey?

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Each Tributary Zone is designed like a house of mirrors. Until one steps inside, there is no image to reflect. No personal content to convey.

The most common way of accessing a non-physical Tributary Zone is through meditation or the dream state. While in these altered states of consciousness the entity can begin to shift and restructure their energy system by accessing these Tributary Zones.
-Philosophy 4


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:34 pm 
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Ulli,

I think there might be some people on this forum that may be think they are the "chosen ones" without thinking they are thinking that way and I do understand your concern. However, people can naturally "follow" if you will what James has been saying without even reading any of the Wingmakers Materials, etc. I would suggest that you read James' lastest paper and in particular the section on the three subtle desires.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:58 pm 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by AmericasMostWanted[/i]
Why oprah winfrey? [/quote]

Maybe because oprah hosted 3 different episodes totally devoted to "the secret."

Many of us know the secret here, but this secret is different for each of us. In my opinion posting here can be a little discouraging. For certain the hierarchy exists in a place where it says "the Hierarchy is unconnected to the Source in a vital and dynamic way."

However we did all "choose" to be here. To battle with all the hardships of the temporary existence. To gather tools to help guide our way through each of our paths that may lead us to the shores of eternity. There are many extraordinary reasons why i have found myself on this forum contemplating not only WMM but life in general. Any help in this area is greatly appreciated and that is why i am still very grateful for the latest piece, for this new fresh paper and website to hit us where it hurts.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:54 pm 
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AMW
Oprah hosted Virtues Project author Linda Kavelin on her show a couple of times, as well as the Secret.
Seems that she and James share the same agenda.
Or maybe both work for the same organization. I really don't know. It was meant tongue in cheek.

Maybe I just wanted to get your attention...

ulli


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:06 pm 
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I saw the secret, it was about the law of attraction, but it was ego based "how to get rich." I didn't see that in the event temples material.

_________________
Each Tributary Zone is designed like a house of mirrors. Until one steps inside, there is no image to reflect. No personal content to convey.

The most common way of accessing a non-physical Tributary Zone is through meditation or the dream state. While in these altered states of consciousness the entity can begin to shift and restructure their energy system by accessing these Tributary Zones.
-Philosophy 4


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:16 pm 
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Read James' latest document, especially the part about the three subtle desires?

What gave you the impression that I had not read it?

And what modification of my behavior are you anticipating by suggesting that I read it?


ulli


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:41 pm 
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AMW

You are quite right...The Secret used the prosperity angle to get their point across, maybe because so many people are still experiencing financial lack. But anyway, its a start. Thoughts create reality, and it will be helpful if people were to discover this.
I thought on the whole they made their point quite well.

Remember how the earlier Wingmaker papers mentioned in one of the Interviews about Dr. Neruda materializing $10,000
in cash?

And, yes, I agree that the ET focus on visualizing a heart surrounded by 6 virtues is definitely of a higher energy frequency than just visualizing one's material needs being met.

Yet I have no problem with being too rich, nor too thin, nor too appreciative, compassionate, forgiving, humble, understanding or valiente. All worth striving for.

I do, however, have a problem with hypocricy, and while I am vigilant with myself I will also wag my finger at others who I think are going down that road.
Not only for my sake but for the sake of James' Cause.

ulli


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:46 pm 
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Ulli good to hear from you! I wondered where the heck you were and how you're doin. By the way, how's the cat? Or was it a mouse or what the heck?:D

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:49 pm 
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That these new materials can be physically felt in resonance by my heart is enough for me to know this project is worth a try. That resonance has never done me wrong ever. I approach this without a past but with the heart of a child on a new path of discovery and adventure. This is what my heart tells me and I'm listening....:)





[Edited on 9-8-2007 by Shayalana]

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:07 am 
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Hi Ulli...nice to have you insights again...

please consider...that the 'changes' in humanity...and those which the planet are experiencing - are happening to us all...(the Sun is shining down on us all ..and it has been very active for the past seven years)...and we have all received an abundance of measurable energy...to the point that the global consciousness is "quickening" (schuman's resonance)

you say your work within a quantum community...didn't materialize...but isn't this "change" a result of it? (the sun feeds us...we feed the sun) If the WMMs had been introduced fifty years ago...James would have been arrested...and Oprah restricted to BET...just as the belief systems of the Bahai were limited by "religion" and its hierarchy.

we all have the ability to "receive"... but few do anything with what they are receiving...other than to think "that interesting"... but these "thought packages"that we are all recieving are like seeds...they just need some nourishment and encouragement to grow... and a good environment.


some people have developed the ability to "transmit" are able nurture in a way that others are willing to accept.

of course we all have these abilities... but few have the genuine desire to share them.

so what James and Oprah are expressing is what we are all receiving...but fail to transmit to others...

I have often thought that the most admirable thing James did was to be invisible...but look at how many more people Oprah reaches... I am grateful that he is now willing to "hold our hand" maybe he feels stronger because of our support

and one more thing to consider...James and Oprah aren't really promoting themselves...even if they are "growing" tall and strong with all the attention they get... they are promoting becoming "healthy" (self confident and self sufficient) by sharing what others have found beneficial ...and of course there are self promoting individuals profiting from what is being shared as well as big biz hoping to make gains...some people still believe you can simply buy wisdom... ...but it is a huge challenge and I appreciate all the help I can find.

anyone who promotes global equality and individual sovereignty, has my respect...and interest.



I agree with what you are saying...and appreciate your concerns... but it is obvious to me...

the work that James is promoting suggests that we transform ourselves from being dependent... to becoming our own Masters...and fulfill our individual as well as the collective purpose of Humanity...one person at a time, at our own pace...if anything, he is waiting on us...to proceed.

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"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview


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I just see Oprah, James and anyone else as "just people."

I walk around and try to be more understanding, try to be a little more commpassionate. So far, it's helped me "not lose my cool" and given me a new prespective on situations.

_________________
Each Tributary Zone is designed like a house of mirrors. Until one steps inside, there is no image to reflect. No personal content to convey.

The most common way of accessing a non-physical Tributary Zone is through meditation or the dream state. While in these altered states of consciousness the entity can begin to shift and restructure their energy system by accessing these Tributary Zones.
-Philosophy 4


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:23 am 
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Ulli, I was not saying you had not read it, I was just asking (in an indirect way to you) if some of the three subtle desires or any of there forms aren't the reasons you are di-satisfied with what you saw/see in the Bah'ai faith as well as what you claim to be starting to see in this community. I'm not suggesting that I myself have gotten rid of these desires myself, but I sense that forms of the three subtle desires maybe why you posted your orginal comment. As I have asked another person in another form: If Divine Love is all that is, in a duality (the physical universe), does not Divine Love also appear to come in negative forms?? If don't see what you desire/expect to see what should change: What you claim to see OR your desire and expectations? Or to pharse it another way, do you change the outside or inside?

Are you sure it's your job to "wave your finger" at those who you deem hyprocrates? Another thing to think about, is evolution possible WITHOUT hypricrary? How does change happen without it? If people want to be hyprocrates, I can give them information about trying to not be one, but I can't make them do anything with it. Valor without compassion and understanding doesn't seem like much to me, which is why I think it is last on the list in one of the excerises in James' lastest paper. I'm not trying to put you down here, I was just asking some questions.

_________________
"Often we forget . . . the sky reaches to the ground . . . with each step . . we fly."

~We Fly by the House Jacks

"Zorba the Buddha" ~Osho~


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:20 am 
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[quote]I'm not trying to put you down here, I was just asking some questions.

[/quote]

Good questions, too, except I don't quite see how they relate to the point I made. If you don't feel yourself addressed you might just ignore my post. If you do then I can't help you as it is your job to do your inner work.


I'm sure you will find the answers within yourself.


ulli


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:41 pm 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Ulli[/i]
[quote]I'm not trying to put you down here, I was just asking some questions.

[/quote]

Good questions, too, except I don't quite see how they relate to the point I made. If you don't feel yourself addressed you might just ignore my post. If you do then I can't help you as it is your job to do your inner work.


I'm sure you will find the answers within yourself.


ulli [/quote]

Which point are you talking about? Your orginal one? I was reading your responce to someone where you saying you didn't like hypocrites and that is why I brought hyprocracy up in my responce. From my own experience, hyprocracy is part of the journey. As we change own own values and grow, so do our behaviors change as well. These changes in behavior maybe be hypocritical of our own past values and beliefs systems, or even to our present values and beliefs. We behave in a certain way, not realizing we did or that our own beliefs have changed thus creating the apparent hypocracy. I guess what I'm trying to say is hypocracy may not be as bad as you seem to be making it out to be. It may in fact be a sign of growth as beliefs and actions may not always be coherent, but the individual expressing the hypocracy may be getting to that coherence.

I do appreciate you pointing hypocracy out though, but just be aware that that hypocracy is just a stage in one's own journey. Does this clarify some things?

_________________
"Often we forget . . . the sky reaches to the ground . . . with each step . . we fly."

~We Fly by the House Jacks

"Zorba the Buddha" ~Osho~


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:24 pm 
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<<<<I do appreciate you pointing hypocracy out though, but just be aware that that hypocracy is just a stage in one's own journey. Does this clarify some things? >>


It clarifies that my comment led to a debate about the pros and cons of hypocrisy.

To me hypocricy is just like a bad smell and I avoid it.

On the other hand, my husband puts up with bad smells all the time since he is a physician. But he battles it.
He does what he can to correct the health of the patient, at their request of course.

Maybe I will suggest to him to allow infections to fester in his patients as it might be of help to them.

And since no one on this forum has requested that I come in here and deal with the hypocricy problem I will interfere no more.

By the way, I wish to thank all my old buddies for their warm welcome back messages.

ulli

PS:

hy·poc·ri·sy (h&#301;-p&#335;k'r&#301;-s&#275;)
n., pl. -sies.
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness.

[Edited on 9-8-2007 by Ulli]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:11 pm 
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Location: High Plains of the Front Range of the Rocky Mts in Colorado USA
[quote]"This path is not owned by anyone...or any organization,
and those who travel it are essentially faith agnostic,
which is to say, they do not look upon this practice as affiliated with a particular religion, spiritual inquiry system, scientific endeavor, New Age belief system, or spiritual master.
[b]It is a framework as [i]old[/i] as the soul itself[/b],
and its chief principle is the ongoing practice of the six heart virtues in one's daily life.

In doing this, the reality that surrounds you will assemble its own path to a higher understanding, suited SPECIFICALLY TO YOU.[/quote]


as to the misconception of our globally accepted perspectives of the "chosen"... please consider that we all have free will and choose individually if we will participate in a collective effort ... no one can force another to "believe"... they can just offer them the opportunity to experience another choice... which broadens our understanding of "chosen".... being those individuals that have chosen to contribute to a united effort... of their own free will.

history has repeatedly shown us that no single person has the ability to change the Genetic Mind... and that it is only when a critical mass of like-minded individuals contribute to the same goal, that "thoughts" materialize. Nor does any individual who has chosen not to participate effect the outcome of any collective effort.

For example: when an individual is convinced that moving a lake to another location is beneficial enough to get the communities permission/involvement to move it...It does not require specific water molecules to begin the siphoning process...only that a sufficient amount of water is available to draw the entire lake in a new direction...the water that is initially used to lead the lake to its new location is not chosen because it is "better"...because it is no different than any of the water in the lake...it just happens to be in the "right" place at the right time :)

[Edited on 9-8-2007 by starduster]

_________________
"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:50 pm 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Ulli[/i]
<<<<I do appreciate you pointing hypocracy out though, but just be aware that that hypocracy is just a stage in one's own journey. Does this clarify some things? >>


It clarifies that my comment led to a debate about the pros and cons of hypocrisy.

To me it hypocricy just like a bad smell and I avoid it.

On the other hand, my husband puts up with bad smells all the time since he is a physician. But he battles it.
He does what he can to correct the health of the patient, at their request of course.

Maybe I will suggest to him to allow infections to fester in his patients as it might be of help to them.

And since no one on this forum has requested that I come in here and deal with the hypocricy problem I will interfere no more.

By the way, I wish to thank all my old buddies for their warm welcome back messages.

ulli

PS:

hy·poc·ri·sy (h&#301;-p&#335;k'r&#301;-s&#275;)
n., pl. -sies.
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness. [/quote]

If a belief changes before those behaviors reflecting that belief change, then by your definition that is hypocritical, because the two do not match. The same thing would be true if one's behaviors changed before a belief reflecting those behaviors changed. If one changes before the other changes than the individual will experience a period of what you would call hypocracy, but eventually, whether in that same "lifetime" or another the two will match again.

It is a process we call evolution or change, unless you are suggesting that both beliefs and behaviors have to change at the same time in order to be valid. What I'm trying to say is that there are people who change beliefs before their behaviors change to reflect it that may not be even aware their beliefs have changed. Does condeming these people and calling them names help any?

There was a point in time where I would have agreed with you Ulli, but not anymore. Are you sure you are not responding based on the three subtle desires James talked about in his lastest e-paper? Are your responces based upon instant gratification or control?

_________________
"Often we forget . . . the sky reaches to the ground . . . with each step . . we fly."

~We Fly by the House Jacks

"Zorba the Buddha" ~Osho~


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:53 pm 
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Yes, GRATIFICATION & CONTROL! That's what drives me. But have to interrupt our lovely dialogue here because THE NEXT THING is beckoning.

ulli


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